The War and Treaty: Electrifying Audiences with Courage and Creativity

We’re starting Season Three with the most incredible duo, The War and Treaty, also known as the husband and wife team of Michael and Tanya Trotter, who are making some of the most exciting music today. Michael and Tanya have overcome hardships that would have flattened most of us. But they persevered and this year, they were nominated for two Grammy Awards. They’re currently featured in exhibitions at The Country Music Hall of Fame and The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. And they’ve travelled around the world headlining their own shows and opening for musical greats like Al Green, Brandi Carlile, Chris Stapleton, Jason Isbell, John Legend, Lauren Daigle, and Van Morrison. We talk about their origin stories, their call to minister with their music, and the power of aging. They give us a behind-the-scenes look at creating “Hey Driver” with Zach Bryan, discuss the fear and the thrill of starting their own management company, and share the story behind their newest single, Stealing a Kiss.

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Transcript

Michael: [00:00:11] Hey, everybody. I’m Michael and I’m Tanya, and we are the War and Treaty. And this is no time to be timid. No time. [00:00:17][5.8]

Tricia: [00:00:19] Hey, there. I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and I want to ask you some questions. What creative work are you called to do but are too afraid to try? Is there a change you want to see happen in your community, but you’re waiting for someone else to step up and do it? Is fear of failure preventing you from starting new things that will make a difference to your life and to others? In this podcast, we look to artists to lead us and show us how they use creativity and courage to make changes in their lives and in the world. Pay close attention because this is no time to be timid. [00:00:54][34.9]

Tricia: [00:01:16] Hey there and welcome to season three of the No Time to Be Timid podcast. Seasons one and two were amazing to produce, and I’m even more excited about this third season. And here’s why. I started this podcast to help listeners like you answer your creative calls, to give voice to that self-expression rising in you. It’s something I knew about, that was close to my heart having left the corporate world to become an artist. I even crafted the No Time to Be Timid manifesto to help guide us along the path and if you haven’t downloaded yours yet, go to triciaroseburt.com/manifesto, print it out, and hang it on your wall. The show’s still about our individual calls, but there’s an even bigger mission now. A couple of months ago, I heard someone describe the “epidemic of cowardice” that’s affecting many of our politicians and government leaders. And that phrase stuck with me, this idea of an epidemic of cowardice. Then I started interviewing my guests for this season, and I realized that these artists, these creative thinkers, are the exact opposite of cowardly. They’re fierce and resilient and resourceful. They embody every tenant of the No Time to Be timid manifesto. They’re honoring their creative selves and at the same time ministering to the masses through music, combating social injustice through arts and crafts, and tending to our most vulnerable through dance. These artists are modeling how creativity and courage can change not only ourselves, but also our world. They’re seeing problems and they’re solving them. So while traditional leadership continues to flail about, I want to elevate these artists so they can lead each of us to do bigger things than we ever imagined we could do. I feel so lucky to talk to my guests this season, and we’re starting off with the most incredible duo, The War and Treaty, also known as the husband and wife team of Michael and Tanya Trotter, who are making some of the most electrifying music today. Michael and Tanya have overcome hardships that would have flattened most of us, but they persevered, and this year they were nominated for two Grammy Awards: Best New Artist for their song That’s How Love Is Made. [00:03:39][143.0]

song continues: [00:04:04] . [00:04:04][0.0]

Tricia: [00:04:05] And Best American Roots Song for Blank Page. [00:04:08][2.6]

Tricia: [00:04:46] They’re currently featured in exhibitions at the Country Music Hall of Fame and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and they’ve traveled around the world headlining their own shows and opening for musical greats like Al Green, Brandi Carlisle, Chris Stapleton, Jason Isbell, John Legend, Lauren Daigle and Van Morrison. Here are some things we talk about: trusting the process and being open to doors and windows of opportunity. How getting older can make your work better than it’s ever been. And if you’re thinking about doing something and it’s not scaring you, the nine times out of ten, you’re doing the wrong thing. It’s an incredible, intimate conversation, and I’m so glad you’re joining us. [00:05:28][42.2]

Tricia: [00:05:34] Hello, Michael and Tanya, we’re so glad to have you on the show. [00:05:37][3.0]

Tanya: [00:05:38] And we’re happy to be here. [00:05:39][0.8]

Tricia: [00:05:40] Okay. I think the first time I met you was in May of 2022 at Amy Grant’s house, and I was visiting her, and she said, Trisha, I’ve invited some people over for dinner. I was like, great. And you all showed up for dinner. We had a lovely conversation. It was so much fun. I knew that y’all were singers, you know, everybody’s downplaying everything. And. And then y’all wanted to sing a song for Amy, and I thought, you know what? I’ll let them do their musician thing, and I’ll just kind of sneak away. And then I thought, you idiot, listen to some live music. I snuck out in the hallway and you all started playing some song, and I was like, what the hell? Who are these people. No one was giving it away what was like behind these voices at dinner. And I don’t even think you told me your name was The War and Treaty. So like this, y’all would sort of cross my radar screen, I’m like, wait a second. These are the folks from dinner. And I would text Amy occasionally and say, they’re on this show. They’re on that show. And then you showed up on the Emmys this year, I went, okay, what the hell? They’re on the Emmys. So I reached out to Amy and said, these guys have to be on the show. So anyway, it’s a real treat to have you guys here. [00:06:57][77.0]

Tanya: [00:06:57] Oh, wow. I remember that day. Thanks, Amy for connecting us. [00:07:01][4.1]

Tricia: [00:07:02] She is very good at that. Since May of 2022, life is different for you guys and this is your year anniversary of your album, Lovers Game. Wasn’t it last March that that came out? [00:07:16][13.9]

Tanya: [00:07:16] Yeah, last March. We celebrated the one year on March, on March 10th. [00:07:20][4.2]

Tricia: [00:07:21] And you were nominated for the Best New Artist category, which makes me giggle because you’ve been doing this for well over ten years. But I’d like to start, if we can, Michael, a little bit with your origin story, because I think it’s really profound. You were telling me that night at Amy’s about how you really kind of found your call over in Iraq, playing music on Saddam Hussein’s piano, which is just something. So if you could give a little bit of shape to that story, that’d be great. [00:07:48][27.1]

Michael: [00:07:49] Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for. Absolutely. I feel like, you know, I always know that my calling was, to the human race, to humanity and to, to help bridge and and connect. I didn’t know that at some point in my life, I would go through the tunnels of war in order to really cement that in my, in my body. And, that’s when I really got into my songwriting chops, writing songs about the fallen and, you know, and performing for the memorials we would have in Iraq, Baghdad or, or, Ramadi and, and Blue Diamond in Iskandaria. So, that is really, what launched my music career. It was, you know, writing the healing portion that called for a lot of selflessness. It also brought a lot of undealt with pain for me because I wasn’t mourning properly. I wasn’t, memorializing my battle buddies the right way. I wasn’t letting it affect me. I was so busy trying to make sure that it didn’t affect my guys, to where I did not realize that at some point, hey, Michael, there’s a crash course, there’s a collision at some point in your history that’s going to take place to where you’re going to have to deal with the fact that over 85 to 90% of the soldiers you were writing these songs about, you knew. You could see yourself in them. And so you know that that’s what happened to me. And 2011, I would I would hit that crash course and, luckily, the year before that, 2010, I met Tanya and, Tanya was already gearing up and preparing for the crash. [00:10:01][131.8]

Tricia: [00:10:02] In one of the interviews you did, Tanya said you were playing at a love fest that she was doing at a gathering because you were handing out backpacks for underprivileged kids. But here’s the line I love that she said you were performing for about five people, but you were performing as if you were in front of five thousand. [00:10:20][17.8]

Michael: [00:10:20] Yes. [00:10:20][0.0]

Tricia: [00:10:21] And, you know, that’s what all of us as artists have to do. We have to show up and act like we’re playing an arena, even though might be five people in the group. Talk a little bit about bringing that kind of passion to your work. Yeah. And and what the what the benefits are when because a lot of us are playing to small houses, you know, and what it feels like when we show up as if it’s a much larger house. [00:10:44][23.3]

Michael: [00:10:45] Well, for me, especially in my life, that kind of mentality began when I was about two years old. I have the most amazing mother anyone could ever ask for. And my mother taught me that it’s not just singing, you know? You’re not singing you’re ministering. You know, she wanted me to know that on the other end of the telephone is, somebody who’s given up hope. And I understood that at an early age. And so, the numbers of the crowd never swayed me as much as the content of the crowd. Like realizing that somebody out there is smiling and that smile isn’t real. Realizing that, you know, I’m singing to depression. I’m singing to suicide. I’m singing to loneliness. I’m singing to people who have given up, misfits, the downtrodden, the broken hearted. I’m singing to people who need hope. They need a lift. So whether it’s five or 50 or 5000, for me, it’s the last time. And if it is the last time someone can hear anything, how about they hear that they’re loved. How about they hear that there’s hope? If it is my last time, if I’m going to take my last breath on stage singing, I’d rather do it giving it my all for that one soul that I’m literally speaking to. So, that’s really the mentality and that’s why me and Tanya connect so well because Tanya is a heart is a heart matters girl, too. So, you know, this is this is soul work. You know, we sing soul music. That’s that’s soul. Yeah, yeah. [00:12:37][112.6]

Tricia: [00:12:39] Yeah. You’ve been in my house all week long, and I have to tell you, it has been a huge, huge pleasure listening to all of your music. I really, and thank you for sharing that, your story with me, Michael. But with Tanya, I’m listening to one of your, it’s one of your interviews. Maybe it was with Jennifer Hudson. And you’re talking about how, because you were in the music game for a while, because you were saying, I love this, you said they call them vision boards now, but I had a wall of Patti LaBelle. I just love that image. Yeah. I want you to describe for me your bedroom with the wall of Patti LaBelle. Give me the picture. [00:13:21][41.9]

Tanya: [00:13:22] Well, my mother used to collect Jet magazines growing up, and I would every time it came in the mail, I would just rush to the mailbox, because you get to see the Beauty of the Week. You get to see, you know, the performance of the week, some of your favorite artists and Patti LaBelle was always in those magazines. So I would wait until maybe 2 or 3 months went past. I was about nine, and by then I’m like, well, she if she hasn’t read it in two months, then she doesn’t want it. And I would go in and tear out the pictures and place them on my wall with all the scotch tape, so she would get so upset that all the Scotch tape was gone, and that her Jet magazines were demolished, because I would also take out like pictures of cars or haircare products or, you know, other artists that I wanted to perform with but Patti LaBelle was like my holy grail, you know, and I wanted to perform with Patti LaBelle, and I had that on my wall until it happened when I was like 17. [00:14:24][62.4]

Tricia: [00:14:25] So apparently you gave her an award on the Soul Train Music Awards. Is that when that happened? Yeah. [00:14:31][6.0]

Tanya: [00:14:32] We actually performed a, tribute to Miss Diana Ross, who was also one of my, you know, holy grails when I was growing up. And Patti LaBelle, myself and the Leverts, Mr. Levert and, Gerald Levert, we performed my endless love for Patti LaBelle. And that was like a dream. That was a dream come true. [00:14:55][23.4]

Tricia: [00:14:55] So how consistently were you making music before you met Michael? Because I know you also were on Sister Act Two. [00:15:03][7.2]

Tanya: [00:15:04] I was always singing, but I went into a deep dive and really trying to find out who I was because my whole life was music. You know, from the moment I decided that I wanted to do music, I was in pageants. I was auditioning for talent shows. I was recording, you know, hanging out with, you know, other artists in, in the Maryland area that were, you know, budding recording artists as well. So I never really paid too much attention to who I was developing as a person. I was developing more stuff as an artist. I was, you know, every day I was dressed up as somebody, you know, I went to school dressed up as Tina Turner, Patti LaBelle. Oh, you know, a born actress. And so I spent those years really just finding who I was. And so I became a worship leader at a couple of churches, and I really got into the spiritual part of who I was. And I learned through that process that I was a healer because, you know, people would hear me sing or I talk to people or be around people, touch people, whatever. And I would see them change. They would change, they would transform. And not just them, but I would also change. There was this joy that I had seeing people transform. And so I started looking at music very differently and looking at the artists that I paid attention to very differently. And so when I met Michael, it was like everything I was training and learning and doing, in, in churches, in ministry, this guy was exemplifying it. You know, he was out there. Yeah. And there was no one. But you could feel his his spirit. You could feel the joy of him giving these songs to the people that were out there. And so I had to meet him. And that was, and then it didn’t help that he was handsome and young, and brought out the saber tooth tiger in me, you know, that that didn’t hurt. [00:17:05][121.4]

Tricia: [00:17:09] Kind of hubba hubba and a good voice. [00:17:10][0.8]

Tanya: [00:17:12] And so, you know, he really recharged my love for music again and made everything I was going through and all that time that I took off to actually make sense. [00:17:22][10.8]

Tricia: [00:17:23] That’s just so lovely. And I love this like, just that crooked path of like, I had a friend of mine one time say God right straight with crooked lines, yeah. And it feels like both of y’all were doing your thing, and then it just lined up at the right time but having these very different paths until that you found each other. But I just I think it’s still just so important, that idea for all of us as artists, you know, if there’s five people in the crowd sing like there’s 5000 because you don’t know who you’re going to touch, and you don’t know that you’re going to get a wife out of it who had to meet you. You know that idea of how creativity not only changes ourselves, but changes everyone else that we’re, you know, that we’re affecting by it? Yeah. I tell you, I have listened to everything y’all have said. [00:18:13][50.1]

Tanya: [00:18:14] I love it. Thank you. [00:18:14][0.6]

Tricia: [00:18:14] It’s been so much fun because I’ve somehow felt like vested because I’d had dinner with you and I grown, I had grown to just just enjoy you so much and had such affection before you ever opened your mouths singing. And that’s why the singing was like a big bonus. But I was like, so in one of your interviews, and I think it was the 2022 CMA Awards, you said that you were in the rafters watching, thinking, how long is it going to take us to get on that stage? You’re like, it’s going to take us like maybe five years, and the next year you were on the stage singing. That is a heck of a trajectory to be in the rafters thinking it’s going to take us five years and then in a year be on that stage. Because, you know, we’ve all like, hit the walls and hit the walls and hit the walls and you go, wait, the wall’s not there anymore. Wait. The wall’s, like the doors are opening. When was that first moment when you went, hey, this feels different. We’re not climbing up the hill. [00:19:19][65.1]

Michael: [00:19:20] Well, I think, for Tanya and I, we had to realize something. I’m talking about those doors, right? You keep trying to open up a door and the doors are locked, and you never, and this goes for most of us, but we never pay attention to the moment God is opening up the window instead of the door. And a window, you know, the window is harder to get in you got to climb up and climb through, but it is open, the windows of opportunity. Our first window of opportunity was in 2018, when the Country Music Hall of Fame called us to help induct, Dottie West into the Hall of Fame. And we sing A Lesson in Leavin’. And it’s there that we meet. Chris Stapleton it’s there. We meet Dirks. It’s there that Ricky Skaggs would would see us and Vince Gill. Yeah. It’s there. It’s right then and there that we’re, we’re revealed that we exist. And that we’re here and no one saw us walk through the door. But people were watching as we were climbing through the windows. And we were saying, you know what? We want to be inside. We want to be in here. To give what we have. And so, you know, it’s it’s not always about the door’s opening sometimes that window is opening, you know, and yeah, that or vice versa, you know, you, you, you feel like your trying, like you got to sneak into the house, the doors wide open, you know, country music and there’s this banter about country music right now, doors being open to people that look like Tanya and I. I believe again, yeah, I believe that, the doors have been open. I think that what people like Tanya and I have done sometimes is we’ve we’ve we’ve closed that door ourselves. Yeah. And then, we peer through the windows and like what we see. So we start trying to open a window, trying to get in that way. It’s realizing that we’ve had the keys the entire time. Just walk to the front door and unlock the door and go in. Yeah. So there’s many different things. But I tell you what I find very interesting then I’ll toss it over to Tanya. It’s not even the stage that creates these windows of opportunities and that unlocks these doors. It’s dinner. It is connection. It’s if Michael and Tanya are standing in Amy Grant’s house talking to Amy Grant and Tricia Rose Burt, that means we belong there. That means y’all belong there. That means that this is a moment God trusts the four of us to create together. But isn’t it interesting how the orchestration of who’s in the room? And why. And now here we are some years later, seeing and talking to you in this capacity. It’s these kinds of things that help create the moment. You know, we’re so people are so caught up with its moments, you know, and this moment in that moment. But what about the moment that we’re talking about we’re talking about this right here, right now. And I’m not looking for the future. I’m not trying to figure out what this is going to do in the future. I’m not looking at it from the past standpoint. I’m looking at what is it doing right now. It’s cementing a relationship that was firestarted by someone we both trust. [00:22:59][219.8]

Tricia: [00:23:00] Yeah, yeah. [00:23:01][0.7]

Michael: [00:23:02] You know, it had nothing to do with color, had nothing to do with social status, had nothing to do with political affiliations or sexual orientation and preferences and everything to do with humanity pausing and saying, I want to make a moment that will last. [00:23:17][14.9]

Tricia: [00:23:18] I just think, what’s so right about that is there’s there’s so much that has gone on before and in so many different ways to make that moment. Like it isn’t just that boom. It’s like it’s just the wheels have been turning to make it line up in that particular way. [00:23:36][17.3]

Michael: [00:23:36] Yeah, yeah. [00:23:37][0.6]

Tricia: [00:23:37] So I’ve learned I have to hold things really loosely so things can unfold as they — I mean, I can orchestrate something within an inch of its life, which is not always the best thing. And to just hold it loosely so those opportunities just, you know, to say yes. Sure. Yeah. And you just say yes, and and something happens. [00:23:59][22.0]

Tanya: [00:24:00] That’s so true. I think that’s a part of, you know, life too, is when you, is your yes. You hear people say things like, in the Bible, I trust you, God. But what about him trusting you? Yeah. You know, with every moment, with with every opportunity, I think. And that goes back to, as Michael said, about humanity, us being able to trust each other, me being able to trust that Amy’s inviting me over and it’s going to be a wonderful experience. And then, we meet you and we’re here, you know, trusting the process is actually harder than the process itself. You know, it’s what? Yeah. [00:24:36][36.3]

Tricia: [00:24:36] Oh, yeah. [00:24:37][0.3]

Tanya: [00:24:37] So trusting that if you step out into the water, you’re not going to drown, you know. Yeah. [00:24:44][7.2]

Tricia: [00:24:45] Yeah. And that’s where community comes in real handy, too. To have that community and the people that you can that you knew are going to make sure you don’t drowned while you’re wandering out there. [00:24:54][9.4]

Tanya: [00:24:55] Yeah. So true. [00:24:56][0.9]

Tricia: [00:24:57] You’re getting lots of attention for a lot of songs right now. You know, Blank Page was amazing. Nominated for a Grammy. That’s How Love Is Made. I love Hey, Driver, how was that experience? What was that like? [00:25:14][17.6]

Tanya: [00:25:15] Again? It’s one of those situations where you have to trust that that you know, whatever is happening in this moment. As you say, you allow it to become whatever it’s going to become. We met him at the awards show with the ACM Awards, and he’d heard us perform. Zach was there with his dad and he was sitting in the audience. And afterwards we were about to leave the show. Everybody, you know, say hello and going to their respective places, parties or whatever. And he runs up to us backstage and he’s like, what the heck just happened to me? He said, I don’t know what just happened. He was like, I’m freaking out. He was really freaking out. And he said that he got chills all over his body, and so he wanted to exchange numbers. He was like, we have to do something together. He was like, these people don’t understand what just happened. And he’s like, but they will. And that’s how he left the conversation. And a couple weeks, yeah. A couple weeks later, he sends us a text message and he has a song. He’s like, I have a song I want to hear. You know, you guys listen to it and just put your backgrounds on it or sing along with it with a voice memo. So we did that. And in a Zach Bryan kind of way, it ends up on his Instagram page with just raw vocals from our voice memo. And we’re like, take it down, take it down. And a couple weeks later, we ended up going to Philadelphia to record it in real time. And again, another thing, another process, Michael, is he takes a bathroom break and Zach and I are in there conversing. And Zach is like, can Michael play the piano? Because he didn’t know. Because Michael hadn’t played when we did Blank Page. I said, of course he plays the piano. He plays it so well, and you have to make sure that he plays on this song. So Michael comes back and Zach’s like, hey man, let’s work out this part together. And they start working out the piano and the guitar together in the room and in a Zach Bryan kind of way, he’s like, okay, enough, let’s get in there and cut it. Right now, they don’t even go through the whole song. They go through the form and that’s it and start cutting the song. We’re on one side of the booth Zach’s on the other side, and we cut the song and Zach’s yelling out, “This is your song, Michael.” [00:27:35][139.9]

Tricia: [00:27:35] You can hear it! [00:27:36][0.6]

Tanya: [00:27:39] Yeah. In the song, it’s because Michael’s like, I’m not really trying to play the piano, you know? I just want to do what you want to happen with the song. But Zach is like, no, man, this is your song. You’re going to do this song, you know? So people hear and experience what really happened in real time. And I think we did like make one, take maybe two for the music. And that was it. It was a crazy experience. [00:28:04][24.5]

Tricia: [00:29:21] It’s also so intimate. We’re like brought in because of that dialog back and forth where there’s a list and were brought in. So I feel like I’m in there with you guys with this when this magic is happening. It’s really wonderful. [00:29:33][12.2]

Tanya: [00:29:34] Thank you. We had a great time. [00:29:35][1.7]

Tricia: [00:29:36] You know, I know these songs are getting a lot of, you know, they’re the ones that have been really brought to the forefront. But I love Dumb Luck. I love Yesterdays Burn. I cannot listen to take me in without crying. So tell our listeners out there, you know, make sure that you listen to Take Me In. We could probably have a three part interview with you guys, because there’s so many stories that we could get into. But I do want our listeners. Michael, you have a very moving Ted Talk that was really wonderful about the origins of the song. Five more Minutes. And, I’m going to put that in our show notes. Is that that’s all right with you, because it’s fantastic for people to see the the story behind that. It’s really wonderful. [00:30:22][45.9]

Michael: [00:30:23] Thank you. [00:30:23][0.2]

Tricia: [00:30:23] So, Tanya, you have this Instagram post that I was like, yay! Preach it sister. Thank you. And when you were saying, I am 51 years old and I’m out here doing this. [00:30:38][14.4]

Tanya: [00:30:39] Yeah. [00:30:39][0.0]

Tricia: [00:30:40] Talk about because I am 63 years old and I am out here doing this. I mean, I don’t know. I don’t think we’re supposed to stop and I’m not stopping. [00:30:51][10.8]

Tanya: [00:30:53] No, you can’t stop. [00:30:55][1.8]

Tricia: [00:30:55] Talk a little bit about that. Talk about that. Michael, you chime on in about that post because I know you thought about it as well. So talk to me about the reactions to it. [00:31:03][8.2]

Tanya: [00:31:04] There’s a lot of stigma about ageism. You know, there’s a bunch of isms. [00:31:11][6.9]

Tricia: [00:31:12] There a bunch of isms. [00:31:12][0.0]

Tanya: [00:31:13] Especially, a bunch of isms. And I found that I wasn’t alone and it wasn’t gender specific because I had men as well as women friends that I didn’t even think would this post would even touch, reach out and say thank you, because we live in a world where when you get a certain age, the people, people just want to throw you away. And sometimes people even throw themselves away. [00:31:39][26.3]

Tricia: [00:31:40] Absolutely. [00:31:40][0.0]

Tanya: [00:31:41] I’m tired. I’m 50. I don’t want to work as hard. I’m drained. You know, we use all these different things. And when I look at my 50s, like, is this is my second adulthood. It’s my opportunity to to do everything not right, but better than I did in my earlier years because I’m wiser, smarter. I’m still learning, but I don’t have the same hiccups that I had in my 20s and 30s and 40s, and it’s an exciting time. Me trying to prove myself that, all that’s over. I think once you get 50-51, you should to the point where you know either you like me or you don’t, you know that kind of thing. And, you know, so I felt that women and men that are in my age group really needed to hear that, because I know I had I’ve been searching the internet and watching women and men not really want to grow up. You know, you see people where they they want to keep their youth, but you keeping your youth should it should be about you being youthful in spirit and not so much youthful in looks. Yeah. My family growing up my mother, all the women and men that were in my life, they weren’t trying to be young. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so I felt like it was important to say because it’s not over and you don’t throw yourself away when you hit 50 or 51. There are things that are changing about you, your body. You’re not the same person you were, you know, in your 20s. But that’s a beautiful thing. And it’s about embracing. [00:33:15][93.9]

Tricia: [00:33:16] Thank goodness I’m not the same person I was in the 20s. She had, she wasn’t interesting at all. [00:33:21][4.8]

Tanya: [00:33:22] She was a master people pleaser. The 20s was like, you know, everybody has to understand. They have to like me. I have to do things that, you know, I’m going to be the correct way of doing it. In your 50s, it really teaches you you don’t have to do that. You know, you are who you are. You’re you’re refining who you are. And I just wanted to put some hope out there for people, because I do hear a lot of women away from, you know, my social media say things and my friends are like, oh my God, I’m getting older. I don’t have a husband, I don’t have this, I don’t have that. And I’m like, you know what? All that can’t define who you are. You know, as a human being. You’re 50, you’re changing, you’re different, and you have to embrace, like Michael said, the window might not be open, but the door 50 is here. You better walk through it. Yeah. You know. Oh, yeah. And enjoy it. It’s a beautiful thing to be able to to live to be 50. You know, I have I think back on friends that in my life they have passed away in their 20s and 30s. His friends have lost in Covid. You know that I will never see again. They never made it to 50. And what a joy to be able to say I’ve lived for five decades. Yeah, that’s pretty darn cool. Absolutely. [00:34:34][71.7]

Tricia: [00:34:47] We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, their dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at interabangbooks.com. That’s interabangbooks.com. [00:35:09][22.4]

Tricia: [00:35:31] There’s another Instagram post and I want you both to join in on this. [00:35:34][3.5]

Michael: [00:35:35] Okay. [00:35:35][0.0]

Tricia: [00:35:36] About starting your own management company. So now you have the Strong Management Company. And this is what Tanya said. And I would like for both of you to speak on it, because this is what No Time to Be Timid is all about. “I want to say this to people who are thinking about doing something extremely scary. If you can imagine yourself doing it and it does not scare you, then nine times out of ten it’s not the thing you should be doing.” I was like yes! [00:36:07][30.8]

Michael: [00:36:08] Yes. Yeah. [00:36:09][1.7]

Tricia: [00:36:11] So talk a little bit about how you guys faced that fear and what helped you get through it. And let me hear your secret. [00:36:18][6.7]

Tanya: [00:36:19] Wow. You know, I’m afraid every time I get on a stage with Michael. I remember when we started doing big festivals and we were, we had a full band, and we were just thrown out there in front of thousands of people. And I remember being afraid and being scared, and I would look if I would look at him and, and freeze up sometimes and he’d look at me like, come on, you got to get it together. You know, you got to do it. And had I stopped and just been like, look, I can’t do this. We would never be where we are right now. In in those moments, even when we did the ACMs, we did Blank Page, I remember us sitting down, holding hands when the song with the screen with the curtain opened up on the broadcast. But before it opened up, I was a wreck. I was like forgetting, what am I going to do? I’m freaking out. You know, I don’t know what to do. And Michael just looks at me and he calms me down. He’s like, you’ve got this. It’s going to be okay. And I feel like every day when I wake up. We woke up this morning to nominations for CMT. Oh, yeah. [00:37:26][66.6]

Michael: [00:37:27] That. That’s not what she woke up to. [00:37:28][1.5]

Tanya: [00:37:30] What’s the news? Well, it’s in the news. Not what. Perhaps this is scary, but it, and at the same time, you’re looking like history is being made while you’re doing it. So you don’t really know you’re doing it. But it’s very, very scary. And I love that feeling. I love it because if I know what’s on the other side, I probably wouldn’t do it because I’m nosy like that. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:52][22.1]

Michael: [00:37:53] I would like to pause and acknowledge that that is not how she woke up. What she woke up to this morning, because at 6:30 a.m.. I got out of the bed. You know I’m a wounded warrior, you know, I have. I have a bum leg from the war. I got out of bed. I’m telling you this, this classic old man kind of stuff. I get out of bed. I take some tea tree oil. Yes. I squeeze the entire bottle into a plastic bowl, and I put it in the microwave, and I heated that sucker up. And as my wife laid there asleep minus of all clothing, I just poured that hot oil and I just massage her entire body from head to toe. And I spoke affirmations over her. Yes, I told her that she’s brilliant. I told her that, you know, she’s going to have an extra burst of creativity today. I told her that God is walking with her. I told her that her ideas and her mind is wanted, is needed. And for me, that’s how I get energy is pouring into her. That’s how I forget. You know, when I look at my wife and I look at our marriage and I look at our love, time is suspended. I forget all things that I, I, I just forget everything. I just become like, google eyed, because I just can’t believe that she is married to me. I know she can do better. I know it 1 million percent. But for me, she’s my leader. I did not want to start our own management company. I was trusting the system. I’m like, look, we got it. We’re in a system, you know? We got, you can’t do it this way. We got to do it how the system says do it, you know? And, I think that if a lot of men would admit where they are afraid, they’re afraid of going against the system, and oftentimes, throughout history, we always give women the sidebar credit when it’s the woman leading the way in every case. Without her saying, you can do it, go forward, without her giving the divine permission. She’s the voice of God in every relationship. This is Tanya. Tanya said, we’re not going anywhere else. We’re going to start our own. And after much arguing and deliberating, I realized that this was a battle I was going to lose. I realized that, I did, and I also realized that, as we have progressed now, she, of course, is right. She’s always right, Tanya’s right. And it has been amazing to step up to the plate. It’s been amazing to talk to other artists and tell the artists yes you can take charge of your own career. Yes, you can buck the system. It’s been rewarding to see how courageous Tanya has led our ship. Led our team and led our family. Led our household. And, I that’s all I can say to it, because I can’t take any, any credit whatsoever for this. This, this literally blossomed out of the brain of Tanya Nicole Trotter. [00:41:18][205.6]

Tanya: [00:41:18] The one thing that I love about Michael is that he gives me a lot of credit. But I notice that every executive, every person that you know of, whatever status you want to call them. They were all drawn to him and they would call just randomly, you know, to talk to him, to get advice, whatever the case may be. And we couldn’t get certain things done with some, some of the teams that we had. Yeah. And so as I started looking at what the, what God was doing, you know, he was shaping it. He is a CEO. When I met him, he was a CEO. [00:41:56][38.1]

Michael: [00:41:57] I have to interrupt. I apologize. I just I must do this, because this is this is the part where this is what I realize is because those CEOs and they were dealing with me because I’m a male. And we can be honest with that. I think that that was why we we’ve that’s why they all failed. And that’s why, in these relationships that I have with certain CEOs, they don’t even understand the power of a Tanya. They can’t grasp it. It’s frightening because if they would give in to her power and she would have to lead their corporations as well. So I’m not going to give them or God, I’m not going to even put God in on that. What God was trying to do is show me, the concerns my wife was having, which is the concern of women in this all over this world. The concern is no one will listen to me, and they easily just listen to you. And and, what I like to put out there, especially in this ether, is I am I’m a singer. And if I am brilliant, it’s because I’ve been taught and educated by Tanya Nicole Trotter. She has shown me where I could use my voice. She has shown me, when I can stand up and how I can be heard without yelling. Tanya has softened my heart. She’s shown me where I’ve been immature, where I’ve played too much, or where I haven’t played enough. Tanya has told me that I’m a king. Tanya took me from poverty in my brain and, Tanya’s told me time show what to do at $8 and how $8 can stretch. And, you know, she’s brilliant. And, again, Strong world Management is ran, with Tanya at the top. And then another young, brilliant woman, Virginia Prater, who was our first agent. She’s very brilliant. And then to, three young ladies right now, Michelle Arnold, Jillian Hubbard and Courtney Simone Trotter. These these women are changing not just the industry, but they’re changing my life. And I’m very appreciative. They’re my bosses. [00:44:20][142.8]

Tricia: [00:44:20] That’s fantastic. [00:44:20][0.2]

Tanya: [00:44:21] You gonna make me cry. [00:44:22][0.8]

Tricia: [00:44:25] Well, then this has been a successful podcast. People are crying. We always like to make sure our guests cry on the show. This pairing of, like, minds and souls, not only as married people, but as artists who are elevating your music, your craft, other artists and and really approaching it in a way that’s that’s different and can change things and disrupt the system. And, and that’s really important and powerful. [00:44:55][30.1]

Tanya: [00:44:56] Thank you. [00:44:56][0.4]

Tricia: [00:44:56] You have a new release coming out on March 22nd. What is that going to be? [00:45:01][4.1]

Tanya: [00:45:01] Yes we do. It’s it’s called Stealing a Kiss. It’s our first single off of our new project that won’t be released until the following year, but we’re very excited about it. [00:45:12][10.7]

Michael: [00:45:12] And, this is our second official, single we’re releasing on a major label. Yeah. Universal. [00:45:19][6.6]

Tanya: [00:45:20] And and this is our first time as we talk about Strong World Management, that our company is releasing, a record, made in partnership with the major label. So we’re very excited about it. Yeah. In the trenches with the with our team and the song Stealing a Kiss, is it’s like a I can’t really describe what it is, is. [00:45:42][22.4]

Michael: [00:45:42] I can, I can describe it. I remember we were walking through this tunnel, we weren’t dating or anything. But I was so interested in Tanya and I just wanted to see, you know, if she was interested in in little ol’ me and we were walking through this tunnel, she just performed these songs with her brother for this radio event, where the Washington Nationals played. Yeah, yeah. So we’re walking back up through the tunnel to go back to her dressing room, and, we were talking about her performance, and we were so excited, and she was performing a song I had produced and wrote, and we were holding hands. I just felt the synergy and I was like, you know, maybe because we’re in this moment, it would be okay for me to just stop and turn around and spin around to me, just plant one on her, steal a kiss. And, when I spun her around to me, I think that she came to realized that she was giving me a little bit too much there, and she let my hand go and, never held it again. And so I missed an opportunity to steal a kiss. And this song, you know, what I did was, instead of, you know, complaining about it, I just went and wrote a whole song about about it and realizing that, you know, it’s so funny because we, yes, we have kissed a lot since then, but that’s the one that I wish I had. Yeah, that know that. Yeah. But yeah, because if the mood was perfect, I mean, I’ve played it on my head. I had the perfect movie scene, the scenario. And that’s what I want to let her know, you know. So that’s what’s Stealing a Kiss is about. [00:47:31][108.8]

Tricia: [00:47:33] That’s fantastic. I mean, I just love that that that whole observation that we’re I think we’re better as artists as we age because we have all this experience. We have all this life under our belt. We can take that beautiful moment from how long ago and now through this lens, sing about it in a way that you know is different now. It’s more informed, it’s wiser, or it’s just it’s just filled with with richness and a depth that wouldn’t, you know, that we didn’t have before. Yeah. Speaking for myself, I don’t need to speak for you guys, but I know I can tell a way better story now than I could when I was 20. [00:48:08][35.8]

Tanya: [00:48:10] And so true. That’s so true. And it’s interesting as we’re talking about it. My heroes were actually in their 40s when I was listening to them as a teen. You think about Tina Turner was, yeah, I was a teenager. Yeah. Patti LaBelle. I was a teenager, you know, listening to this music. So these weren’t young people, you know, these were, mature women that I was just drawn to — Anita Baker — I was just drawn to. Yeah. And I feel like back then, because everything wasn’t so exploitive, where you had to know about every part of a person’s existence in life. You know, you just enjoyed the music and you just enjoyed that person as an artist, and you didn’t pay attention to it. So I feel like, you know, now you kind of have to say things and you kind of have to be very vocal because Tina Turner was very vocal about her age. You know, she didn’t hide, you know? But now I think it’s empowering to younger women when they see that it’s not over for you, that your story will get better, that you can tell a better story at 50 than you could at 20. And they need to hear that. [00:49:12][61.2]

Tricia: [00:49:12] Absolutely. [00:49:12][0.0]

Michael: [00:49:13] Here’s the thing. Because when you understand this, when you give in to this and this is the advantage we have when we believe in God. We were created by the kind of God that is the author and the creator of time. I’ve got nothing to do with it. I’ve got nothing to do with it. He curates it. He has mapped it all the way out. So what I do with my time, what I do with it is very important, and I’d just rather spend my time suspending time through relationships I create with people. There’s so much we can do. There’s so much we can get done when we don’t — We just had to tell our team the other day, if you are looking at our age as a hindrance for booking us, we’ve got a problem. You know I control when I’m tired. I control when it’s too much. You know I am in full, complete control with that. And it’s only when I have that control that I can be parallel with the universe and what the will is for my life. You know, so, that’s what I’m trying to master right now. Because if you start looking at age, listen, it’s scary. I’m watching people who I’ve anchored myself off of in my life just disappeared. Yeah, disappeared, whether I know them or not. Tony Bennett’s gone. My dream was to sing with him on his duets album. Tony’s gone, Ray Charles is gone. These people just disappear in our lives. Well, like my granny passed away last year. She’s gone. My uncle in a pandemic, Tanya’s mom, you know, if we focus on and now soon it will be me, it hinders a lot. It stunts a lot of growth. And then you start creating out of the frantic possibility that you’ll run out of time instead of creating freely, just being free and realizing that you’re creating something that’s timeless. Yeah, you’re creating something that is not bound and gagged by the chains of time. You know, we control it. So, and and Tanya, the thing that she said, what she said spoke to both men, women, boys and girls, persons, people. It it it spoke like that because it came from a true, honest place that none of the isms touch. They can’t even get close. It’s her spirit, it’s her soul. So, that’s what we. We’re the light. That’s what we beam off of right there. [00:51:59][165.6]

Tricia: [00:51:59] Man, that is fabulous. And it is the perfect place for us to end. Thank you so, so much for spending this time with me. [00:52:07][7.6]

Michael: [00:52:07] Thank you so much. Thank you. [00:52:09][1.9]

Tricia: [00:52:30] It was so fabulous connecting with Michael and Tanya again and just to close the story loop. Not only did Tanya wake up to a massage the other morning, she also woke up to two CMT Music Award nominations. The War and Treaty have been nominated for Duo/Group Video of the Year for their song Have You a Heart and CMT Performance of the Year for the song On My Own from CMT Smashing Glass. It’s a fan-voted award show, so we’ll have the link in the show notes so you can cast your votes for The War and Treaty. The show airs April 7th on CBS, so get voting. Also in the show notes, you’ll find the link to Tanya’s other creative enterprise. She Loves Vintage, which are her vintage inspired tees, pullovers, loungewear and more. Tanya is the definition of a creative force. And as always, here are some questions to think about. Are you letting your age stop you from moving forward? Do you think you’re too old or maybe too young? How are you showing up to your work? Are you playing to a crowd of 5000 even if there’s only five people in the audience? And is there a system somewhere in your world that needs to be bucked? Are you the person to do it? We’ll have more about The War and Treaty in our show notes, but make sure to follow them on Instagram @thewarandtreaty. Check out their website, and don’t forget to download their new single “Stealing a Kiss.” [00:53:55][85.1]

Stealing a Kiss: [00:53:55] I never had regrets. Tonight all our plans are shaking. I can’t believe I. [00:54:04][8.3]

Tricia: [00:54:23] If you’re listening to this podcast, it’s because you care about creativity and courage too. And believe, like I do, that this is no time to be timid. This year I’m taking the no time to be timid message on the road. And maybe you’re part of the world needs to hear it. If you’re looking to awaken boldness and creativity in your company or organization, I’d love to come speak to you. Let’s have a conversation. Please reach out to me at booking@triciaroseburt.com. Stay tuned for our next episode when we visit with Becca Stevens, author, priest, justice entrepreneur, childhood sexual abuse survivor, and a tireless advocate for women’s survivors in Nashville and around the world. She’s the president and founder of Thistle Farms, which started with five beds for women survivors and spawned a global movement. Like Becca says, you use creativity to spark new revolutions. This is an episode you do not want to miss, and to make sure you don’t subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And if you’ve got some thoughts about the show, we’d love to hear them. Shoot us an email at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch, and our theme music is Twists and Turns by the Paul Dunlea Group. If you like what you hear, please spread the word, subscribe to the show, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions. [00:54:23][0.0]