Finding Healing and Redemption in Creativity featuring Megan Barry

Takeaways

• Creativity can help you deal with grief and trauma in a healthy way.
• Writing can be a transformative experience. 
• Surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do is the best way to learn.
• Deadlines can be helpful tools to complete your work.
• Grief can be absurd, and humor can help you navigate it; and lastly,
• Creativity is an act of service.

Resources

Learn more about Megan here. Buy her book!

Follow her on instagram @mayormeganbarry.

And here are some links to organizations doing important work around the opioid crisis and substance abuse disorder:

• https://www.shatterproof.org national organization doing amazing policy work and advocacy
• https://treatmentatlas.org a comprehensive list by state to find treatment options
• https://www.samhsa.gov a great resource for mental health and SUD treatment information 
• https://www.getnaloxonenow.org/#home – for those who would like to obtain and carry Naxalone

Transcript

Megan (00:05)

Megan Barry, I’m an author, a speaker, and a reformed politician. And this is No Time to Be Timid.

Tricia (00:24)

Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and in this podcast, we talk to artists who show us how to find the courage to take risks, step out of our comfort zones, and use our creativity to make our work and change our world. Pay close attention, because this is no time to be timid.

Hey there and welcome to the show. We’re so glad you’re here for this episode where I talk to Megan Barry, author of the recently released memoir, It’s What You Do Next, The Fall and Rise of Nashville’s First Female Mayor.

Now a little backstory. After a historic runoff election in 2015, Megan Barry became the first female mayor of Nashville, Tennessee, and one of the most popular progressive politicians in the South with a sky-high approval rating. For the first few years in office, she was one of the most important voices at the table. Now, depending on where you were in 2018, you may or may not remember what happened next. Since the story was documented nonstop by all major media outlets, I’ll prompt your memory with some headlines. From the Washington Post:  “Megan Barry Resigns as Nashville Mayor Weeks after Admitting Affair with the Security Chief.” From the New York Times: “Megan Barry, Nashville Mayor Pleads Guilty to Theft and Agrees to Resign.” And from Variety, “Nashville’s Music-Loving Mayor Megan Barry Resigns in the Wake of Adultery.” It was a monumental lapse in judgment that played out on the national stage. As Megan says, she was a public servant who became a public scandal with a fall just as spectacular as her rise.

Before this public reckoning and while she was still in office, Megan lost her only child, Max, to a drug overdose. So in one year, she lost two of the things she loved the most: her beloved son and her job as the mayor of Nashville. Grief, shame and resentment nearly destroyed her marriage, but she has found her way back with humility, hope and a very funny sense of humor. 

In our conversation, I chose to stay clear of the intimate details of her son’s death and her infidelity — they’re all documented in her book, which I encourage you to buy – because this is a show about creativity and courage. I wanted to focus on why she chose to write, to express her pain and grief in the form of a book. And most importantly, I wanted to know if the process of writing helped to heal her.

If we think about Megan’s story as it relates to the principles of the No Time to Be Timid Manifesto, she ticks off nearly all of them, but there are two that stand out. There is more than one way in life, and failure is your friend.

Here are some more important takeaways:

Creativity can help you deal with grief and trauma in a healthy way. Writing can be a transformative experience. Surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do is the best way to learn. Deadlines can be helpful tools to complete your work. Grief can be absurd, and humor can help you navigate it. And lastly, creativity is an act of service.

In the inside cover of Megan’s book, she states, “I’m writing this book because at some point, all of us will be at our worst. Some of us will be remembered for it, but none of us should be defined by it. It’s what you do next that counts.” Enjoy the show.

Tricia

Hey Megan, welcome to the show.  

Megan (03:55)

Hi Tricia. It is so great to be here. Thank you so much for making time to have me on. This is amazing.

Tricia (04:01)

Okay, now I’m very excited about this. As we were talking before the show, I read your book, It’s What You Do Next. I read it in one sitting. Most of my comments were, no, don’t do that. No, don’t do that. I’m saying it to myself, stop. This is bad. But anyway, incredibly well-written. But I want to go back to something. We met in May of 2021. A lot has happened in that time.Blessed to meet you at Amy Grant’s house. She had asked me to come and do my one woman show. And I was like, are you sure? I haven’t done it in a while.

Megan (04:38)

Oh my gosh, it was so amazing. I came home that night after seeing your one woman show and talked to my husband and we just had this great conversation about what you had done, how vulnerable you were, how amazing your story was. And it was just one of those moments where I was like, I wonder if I could ever be that vulnerable in a group of people who you didn’t know, right? And to just share so honestly, also with so much humor. I laughed and so…

Tricia (05:10)

I do have a friend of mine who says, Tricia, you cook things in comedy so people can eat it. I mean some of the topics were kind of tricky, but you know, there you go. But what I knew, I’m like, I think we’re going to be friends when you sent me a text the next day and you said, “your comment about if you continued consulting, you would die is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you for the gift.”

Megan (05:20)

Yes yes

Tricia (05:37)

So I wanted to ask you, because that was three years after you’d resigned from office. It was three years after you’d lost Max. And so I want to, like, what was happening? Why did that line resonate with you so much? And you hadn’t started writing the book yet. Had you started writing the book?

Megan

No.

Tricia

So I want to know, like, what was it about that line? Because I think so many of us, it has resonated with a lot of people when I do that, you know. So I kind of want to know your reason why it struck you at that moment.

Megan (06:09)

Sure. You know, I was at a moment in my life when I was trying to figure out what I was going to do. And, you know, as you just articulated, I had left office as the mayor. Let’s just say there weren’t a lot of job opportunities open to me at that moment. So, you know, consulting was really the only avenue because, you know, I could find some folks who were willing to pay me to do some stuff. And it was just so soulless having come from a place where I was having an impact every day. As a consultant you’re kind of being dropped in. You give some advice and then you’re gone and so you never get to see the actual reality of what happens and so when you said that – because I would, I felt like that every time I did something, I was like you know I needed the money but it’s like this is not how I want to fill my days and so when you said that line I was like yes somebody is articulating this in a way that I can absolutely relate to. And from that, your show does so much and who you are does so much for others that I was just given this moment of a gift to say, you know what? I don’t have to do that. I can do something else. So thank you. Thank you again for that gift.

Tricia (07:23)

You’re welcome. You know, Twyla Tharp said creativity is an act of defiance. I mean, it changes the status quo. It certainly changed my status quo about what my place in the world was and how I thought I could serve people and what I could do. And so I feel like you writing this book was also an act of defiance in a way to say, I’m going to let go of what came before and exactly what the title of your book says. It’s what you do next. So, but tell me a little bit about that process because you hadn’t written before.

Megan (07:55)

No. No, and you know, kind of during the COVID times, you know, was a moment where I started taking a couple of classes, because I’ve always been a big believer, if you don’t know how to do something, other people do. You should learn from them. And so I started taking some classes out of an organization called Gotham from New York that went online during COVID. And yeah, and they were, you know, they were great. And I had no intention of writing a book, right? I was just trying to get down some of the stuff that had happened in my life.

Tricia (08:29)

And why did you want to get it down? Why did you want to get it down?

Megan:

You know I just needed to, if I got it out and onto a piece of paper then maybe I could deal with it in a more healthy way, I think is the best way to put it. Just, you know, when we walk around with grief and trauma and feelings that are not healthy, you know, if you can actually expunge them it helps you move on and and I needed to move on and this is this book was part of it, but I also needed not only to move on but also to remember some of the beauty of my life at that time and and look I I’ll be honest, you know, there were lots of drafts of this book, you know, the first one was a lot more salacious and a lot more revenge-oriented, But what who does that serve nobody.

Tricia (09:16)

Yeah. Yeah, no, but that’s a really good point. It’s a really good point. And also, your life has been as a public servant. You have been serving in the capacity of an elected official. But this also, like, who were you trying to serve with this book?

Megan (09:37)

So when I got elected as the first woman mayor of Nashville, one of the things that was the most powerful were all these little girls that would come up to me and say, oh my gosh, you’re the first woman. And there was this real weight of carrying that for them so they could see and be if that’s what they wanted. And I wanted to be the first, but I certainly didn’t want to be the last. Like you know so many should come behind me. When I left office and I left under, you know, a circumstance which was full of disgrace and shame, I wanted to write this book for those little girls to say, you know what, you can actually really blow your life up with really bad mistakes that you yourself make, and put it back together and find happiness. And, and, and so, I mean, that’s what this book with, I hope, is what it does is it shows you that you can really come from a really sad and bad place, but you can end up in a better place.

Tricia (10:38)

Yeah, yeah. No, I think it’s very powerful because we have all made mistakes. We have all not been our best selves. You know, yours happened to be on a national stage. I mean, the name of it is No Time to Be Timid. This season is all about presenting people with blueprints, role models of people who have shown real courage. And, you know, to make the choice to tell this story was a really brave choice to make and to serve those little girls. I’m hoping I can make little girls braver through the course of this, you know, so..

Megan (11:13)

I mean, I think that there is a responsibility that we as women and women of a certain age have to always be making sure that we are sticking our hand back to pull those behind us along. That’s what other women did for me. And I owe that, as I think we all do, to the folks who are coming behind.

Tricia (11:33)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So tell me what it was like when you went to your first writing class?

Megan (11:40)

Oh Gosh. So these were all on Zoom, right? So, and I was the only person from the south. Everybody else was from the north. And it was interesting because there – which was actually kind of nice, though, because at that point, most of my classmates didn’t know my story. So that was good. They could read it without any kind of preconceived ideas. Yeah. And it was fun. So first I took Memoir One, right? And so I shared everything I wrote with my husband and I brought some pages down to him and he’s like, apparently the first casualty of memoir is truth.

Tricia (12:19)

Yeah.

Megan (12:21)

And I said, well, this is my truth. This is how I remember things. And he said, well, I don’t really remember it quite that way, but okay. And so then I took Memoir Two and figured out I really didn’t know what I was doing. So I went back and took Memoir One.

Tricia:

Good for you. Good for you.

Megan:

I repeated it. And then I took Bruce’s comments to heart and I thought, well, you know, maybe I should write fiction. So I took a fiction class and I’ve never written fiction and my gosh, people who write fiction blow my mind. They’re so talented. And we would get these prompts in class and like the teacher would say, okay, write something about two people on a train. And my classmates would come back with these elaborate, amazing, integrated stories. And I would come back with Bruce and me sitting on a train having a conversation. I was like, well. And then so I shared some of my fiction with Bruce and he’s like, I don’t think you can call it fiction if all you’ve done is change our names. I’m like, all right, we’re back to memoir because a lot of it was just like vignettes, you know, chapters, and then having to weave it all together as one cohesive story. And I love that you said at the beginning that you were doing that. “Oh don’t do it, don’t do it. Oh God, she did it.” You know?

Megan (13:43)

That’s what I hoped as a writer to take you, the reader, along for the ride. I wanted you to be there to see how this unfolded and,

Tricia (13:52)

Yeah, I was just like, okay, that is such a bad choice. 

Megan:

Don’t make that choice!

Tricia:

Yeah, don’t, don’t. I mean, it was, and it was even just a subtle thing like when you decide to get in the front seat of the car, I’m like, no, do not do it. Do not do that. You know? And so, so it was really interesting because I was in Nashville when all of that was unfolding, spending a lot of time there. And so I knew the story and so I was wondering how I would react to the book.

Tricia (14:22)

And I knew you, so I was wondering how I would react. I like, I wonder how this is all gonna be? And so it was really interesting that I was like, well, let me read it before the interview. I don’t want to say with obligation, but as a duty to make sure that this was a good interview and I was thorough, but I was like, I got it, okay, what’s happening? I mean, I just can’t..

Megan:

What’s gonna happen?

Tricia:

…this is a train wreck and I am still reading this book. But there were some really moments of it that were really lovely and redemptive and you and I had worked on briefly the chapter on funeral underwear and which, you know, if you want to just talk a little bit about that.

Megan (14:57)

That was the very first piece I wrote. Again, that was like, again, a vignette, right? And I had gone away for a weekend and one of the – they had, you know, we could do a, it was like a little writer’s thing, you know, but I, again, had never done this before, but that was the one piece I wrote. And so that was the only piece I had. And so that piece was the glue that kind of put the whole book together. And so you were right there at the very beginning. And for those who are listening who don’t know this story, basically it’s about the three things that I loved the most. My son Max, who we lost to a drug overdose. My job as the mayor of Nashville, Tennessee that I lost because of my own ego and hubris and mistakes. And my husband Bruce, who I love so much and the one thing I could save, which was my marriage to him. So that’s what this story is about because that’s kind of it in a nutshell.

Tricia (16:02)

I have a dear friend who lost a child when he was three, so I’ve witnessed what that looks like with a dear friend. So I’m just so sorry that you had to go through that. But you write about it beautifully, and you write about really tough moments beautifully. And you also write about the absurdity of some things afterwards, which is the funeral underwear story. And so just give a little shape to that, because I think for those people who are writers, any of us who are storytellers or artists or whatever, for a first time writer, you were incredibly skilled at taking something that was painful and absurd and kind of letting us be there with you in the middle of it.

Megan (16:47)

Thank you. I mean, you know, so when Max died, he was in Colorado and we had to get him back to Nashville. And so, one of my first calls was to an undertaker here in Nashville. And he explains to me that when Max is coming back, we are going to have to go get clothes for him. And then he, because Max doesn’t have any clothes, and he also says you’ve got to get some underwear for him. And I’m like, underwear what the hell? He’s like, yeah, it’s our policy. We only bury people in underwear. And I mean, the absurdity of that. I mean, who cares if they have on underwear? But in that moment, the things that were so absurd were also a little grounding because I had to go do something, right? I had to go get underwear.

Megan (17:37)

And I can remember I went with my sisters, we went and picked out an outfit for Max, but then we also had to go to Target to get underwear, but they only sell it in three packs. So now I’ve got extra underwear. The absurdity of this stuff. I still remember, I write a little bit about this in the book when Max’s memorial, kind of his visitation, right? And the people of Nashville who were so loving and kind lined up for hours to greet Bruce and me and to tell us things. I still remember one person appeared in front of me. I couldn’t tell you what their face was or even what their, you know, who they were, who said to me in that moment after standing in line for two hours to say something to us, don’t you wish you’d had a spare?

Tricia (18:27)

Oh my word.

Megan (18:28)

Max was our only child. And in that moment, I still remember that jarringness of that. And what I’ve come to understand over years of thinking about that comment is that poor person stood there for two hours and thought about their worst fear. And their worst fear was that they might not have had, that they had had multiple children, that if they lost one,

Megan (18:56)

they’d have another one. And so that’s all they could say to me in that moment. You know, it’s just being able to, and I try to do this with the characters in this book, because, you know, they are characters, even though they are based on real people, is to try to give most of the people in this book some grace, right? Because at the end of the day, most of us are really just trying to do the best we can. And I do say most of us anymore, because I’m not sure it’s all, but most of us.

Tricia (19:26)

I mean, I’m like you. I don’t know how people write fiction. I couldn’t even begin to write fiction. I don’t even know how you do that. And my material is what my experience has been. So, you you did the same, but dealt with such difficult topics with a lot of grace and compassion. And I think one of the things that’s important for us as artists, as people, is to also have compassion for ourselves. And I think that’s one of the things that comes through in your book. And I think that’s also what creativity helps us do. It’s like you said, your first draft was filled with revenge. And then you get through it, you’re like, who is this going to help? It’s not going to help anybody. 

Megan:

It certainly wasn’t gonna help me.

Tricia:

Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I think that that’s such an important role that creativity plays is it helps us work through messy things and also be of service to other people. What was the process like for you? Like, what did it look like? Like, did you wake up in the morning and I’m gonna spend two hours writing this book? Did you like, well, what did it look like?

Megan (20:39)

Yeah, I wish I had that kind of discipline, which is why I probably have one book in me. 

Tricia

which is gonna be in my next question, but keep going.

Megan:

So because I had these classes, I had deadlines I had to make, you know, to produce something. And I’m so much better if I actually have to produce something on a deadline. And so, you know, I had all this stuff you know, as you know, with the writing process, well, there you go. So I didn’t have a finished book. And I, at the same event that we were together with Amy…

Tricia:

Yes, you met Margaret King.

Megan:

Yes, who’s an agent. And so we subsequently connected and she agreed to represent me. And we sent out lovely, lovely letters to all these places. And I got lovely, lovely no thank yous back. 

Trica:

No, but that’s so good to hear.

Megan (21:36)

At that point in time, I was like, okay, what am I going to do? Am I actually going to finish this book if I don’t have a publishing deal? Because as you know with memoir, it’s so much different than fiction. The book isn’t done. What you’ve had to do is create an 80-page proposal with three good chapters and kind of chapter outlines. And so my whole challenge was, am I actually going to go back and write those chapters out of those chapter outlines if I don’t actually have a place to ultimately put this book?

And I think the answer probably would have been no, because I wouldn’t have had a deadline to do it. So thankfully, Margaret did help me find a publisher, Ben Bella, which is great. I love these guys, they’re out of Texas. And they said, absolutely, we want your book. And then I had a deadline.

Tricia:

How long did that take?

Megan:

Oh, gosh. OK, so let’s see. I met Margaret, like you said, in 21. It took me a while to write the proposal because you’ve got to write a proposal, which is a whole nother process. I probably, let’s see, it was probably 22. It probably took a good year before we found anybody.

Tricia (22:44)

And how many rejections did you get?

Megan (22:46)

I’d say 15.

Tricia (22:49)

Good. Yeah. No, I mean, I don’t mean good. Just, it’s just for our listeners, like it’s hard.

Megan (22:56)

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, listen, I got 15. And at that point, I was like, you know, maybe this is the sign of the universe saying, yeah, you know what, this isn’t going to go anywhere. And so I kind of took a break for a while and told Margaret, well, you know, if you see anything, let me know. And Ben Bella just happened to be another friend who said, hey, I got this guy who’s a publisher. You should talk to him. And so I did. And he’s like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, what? And that was so serendipitous, right? Like again, just being able to make that connection. But then he said, okay, now we want your book. Now you’ve got to write it. And so that was the, like that then took a good year and a half to then go back and do those chapter outlines and get them into a place where, you know, they call it, you know, killing your darlings, right? There are lots of things in this book I wanted. And they’re like, you get two hundred and thirty, you know, five pages. So make it tight, then you have to slash and burn because that’s one of those things. And then because, you know, I ran for Congress last year. So, and obviously I’m sitting here with you, so I didn’t win.

Tricia:

Damn. Damn. 

Megan:

Damn. Damn. But we had gotten to the point where they were ready to release it and, and we were going to release it last year. And like right before I started, was going to run for Congress, and I said, I said, well, can we please hold it? I love this book. I don’t want this book to step on my run for Congress. And I don’t want my opponent to use pieces of this book to run against me. And so my publisher agreed. So it came out the week after the election.

Tricia (24:40)

Yeah, yeah, it came out exactly a week after the election.

Megan (24:42)

Well, that was my publisher was like, that’s it, honey. You can’t push it anymore.

Tricia (24:48)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What did the day look like? You woke up, you had your coffee, you started writing, or you woke up and ran around town and said, okay, I guess I have to write now. Like, what did it look like?

Megan (24:57)

I was always better in the morning. So my mornings were the time that I would sit down. That was usually also if I was coming up on – they wanted to see the draft, that was more motivating. So then I would probably spend a lot of time on it.

Tricia (25:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m always interested in narrative arcs. Who were you at the beginning of writing that book and who were you at the end of writing that book? Did you feel more healed by the process of writing? Did you have better connections with people than before? Like, how did it serve you in the healing process? I’m just curious. 

Megan (25:34)

Yeah, I think that’s a great question.

Tricia (25:40)

Even if it did, I mean, I think it had to, but what did it, you know, like, how angry were you and grieving were you when you sat down and what were you like at the book launch party?

Megan (25:48)

I mean, I think that’s such a great question because I think obviously in, since all this happened since 2018, you know, that’s a long time ago. And the healing process came for me as I put these words down, as I started to give the other people in the story grace and compassion and started to write them from a place of grace and compassion and to kind of take out those, as I said earlier, those pieces that didn’t matter or pieces that I tried to think how would they perceive themselves in this? I mean, I was trying to be honest too, but you know, kindness, I was trying to be kind. And that kindness to the characters in the book who are real people translated into kindness for myself.

Tricia (26:38)

Yeah, that’s interesting.

We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment, but right now I want to tell you about our sponsor, Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore which was named one of the country’s top five bookstores by Publishers Weekly. They have a fabulous curated online collection and it’s just as easy to shop with them as it is with Amazon. Who doesn’t want to support an independent bookstore?

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I love the device that you used of elections in your life – loved it. You start with class secretary. How old are you at class secretary?

Megan

I’m in the fifth grade. What is that like 10,11?

Tricia

Fifth grade. Yeah. So you’re in the fifth grade and you vote for your opponent and your mama gets after you for not voting for yourself.

Megan

She does indeed.

Tricia (28:15)

Then it’s vice, I loved the vice president of the student body because you’re like, I mean, just so cocky about the whole thing.

Megan (28:22)

Yeah, it was like a popularity contest.

Tricia (28:24)

I love that humbling experience that you went through. And then I love the vice president of morals and standards for your sorority. It’s like, my word. 

Megan

No irony there.

Tricia

But it was really brilliant to see how your motivation had shifted. Did you know growing up, I will be, I wanted to be in public service?

Megan

No, I mean, I think, you my mom raised all of us – I have three little sisters – raised all of us up to be in professions that would allow us to work and have a family. She was very very keen on that. My undergraduate degree is in education. My next sister, she’s in education. My sister below that was a nurse. My sister below that was a nurse and a social worker. But what the weird thing is, is although my mom’s motivation was to give us a profession and also be able to raise the kids, I guess is what she was thinking. What it did is actually created in all of us compassion and service. Because what those actual professions do is you have to serve other people. And I never ever, ever equated or thought that, you I would go into public service as a, you know, politician. But like most women, sadly, you know, this is still true, even though we need it to change. Most women do run for office at those points in their life, grade school, high school, college, and then they set it on the side and they don’t do it again, because most women don’t think that they can. The difference between men and women oftentimes in politics is women think I need more skills, I need to wait until I’ve accomplished this or done that. And men, no not all men, but most men are like, I got this. I can do this, no problem. But that is changing, the parity of, like in our, in Nashville in our Metro Council, finally have a majority of women on our 40 member council. I, when I got elected, there was a handful of folks. So it is changing, but we need it to move faster.

Tricia (30:39)

Yes, we do. We do. You and I are both from the South and I have spent a long time taking up space. And I will work with, I’ll work with very accomplished women. I have several women in my world right now and they happen to be from the South. And I will say, do you have that, you’re not supposed to draw attention to yourself thing going on? And they went, yeah. I’m like, okay, we’re going to get over that real quick. And it was interesting. I was talking to a woman who’s very involved in the podcast industry and I was talking to her about my podcast and she said, I really like the name because as women we are fed timidity from birth. We’re just fed it, you know. It’s giving ourselves permission to take up space. I mean, I can remember when I was in art school, I would make really tiny paintings because I didn’t think I was supposed to take up any space. And then our assignment was to make a painting that was five feet by five feet. And I was like, wait, what? And it broke me wide open and it is hanging in my living room and I will be buried with it.

Megan (31:48)

Oh Tricia, I love that so much. What a great way to take up space by producing something like that.

Tricia (31:57)

Well, and right back at you. I think what’s so powerful about you writing this book is saying, okay, so I made some mistakes. So I made some errors in judgment and I’m not going anywhere. Like I’m gonna, you know, it’s like Megan 2.0.

Megan (32:15)

Well, and I think you, there’s a moment in the book where I don’t know if you remember this but I’ve just resigned. I’m at the airport and I’m having to walk through the airport to get on had on a plane and and and I go to Montana to hang out

Tricia (32:27)

Wait, first you have to tell the story of the woman in first class.

Megan (32:36)

Yes, Jodi. So she honestly – I’m in this airport. Obviously folks are talking about me, pointing. I mean, there’s a whole lot of, you know, very uncomfortableness here. And as I get on the plane, you know, the flight attendant looks at me and is like, good luck. My seat is all the way at the back and I start down the first class section and this woman jumps up and she grabs my boarding pass and she hands me hers and she says, you are not gonna walk this plane. Take my seat.

And I mean, I still get a chill when I tell that story because like she didn’t have to do that. Like, but she put me in her seat by the window out of the way and she took my seat and it was a long flight and she had a first class ticket. And you know, and then she obviously had some kind of status because at the end she actually even arranged for me the minute I got off the plane to have a vehicle at the airport pick me up because we were late and take me to my gate. So I made my next flight. I mean she was incredible. You know, and I think that’s the other thing I’m hoping that I share in this book is that there were so many kind strangers and just those moments of and small acts of kindness made a huge difference in my day and in my week and in my life. I talk about the woman from Ohio who wrote me letters. 

Tricia:

Debbie.

Megan:

Debbie. And this is a woman who didn’t know us at all and yet she made it her mission over the course of a year to send a note to Bruce and me every couple of days reminding us that we were still remembered and that Max was still remembered. And at that moment in time, those letters were so important to Bruce and me in our marriage. I mean she couldn’t have known that, but that was because we had so few pathways back to each other. At the moment, we started calling them Debbie days. We’d get a letter from Debbie. It would be a Debbie day. And that would just give us a connection. Now she didn’t write those letters for that. She had no idea about that. And I think, I hope that the takeaway for some is that you can do these small acts of kindness that don’t take a lot from you, these heavy lifts, and you don’t know the ripple effect. You have no idea what that may do, and a little kindness can go a long way.

Tricia (35:23)

Well, you’ve just done such a great service to both of those women and in including them in the book, but letting us all know. I mean, it’s just, an important book. You’re highlighting your own redemption and we’re all on the road to that ourselves. Just like, how can I clean up that mess that I made? And just letting us know again about those little acts. I want to talk a little bit of what you’re doing now because I know you’re very active around the opioid crisis and all that stuff in response. Tell us a little bit about what you’re doing now.

Megan (35:57)

So, you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we lost Max to a drug overdose in 2017. You know, what I do now is I show up anywhere, anytime. I’ll talk to anybody, any group that wants to have me to talk about shame and stigma. I truly believe that if Max, if we had treated the disease, I mean, substance use disorder, like a disease that I believe it is, we would have been able to help him understand how to manage this and he’d still be alive. But we as a society, we still look at this as a moral failing and folks don’t get the help they need. You know, in fact, it’s so like in the world of small worlds. Later today, I’ll be at a grand opening for a new treatment center here in Nashville, which is awesome. And the woman who is the CEO reached out to me a couple of weeks ago to ask me to come and she said, you probably don’t remember this, but when you were mayor, my four year old daughter was in a car accident. And I totally remember this because the car was three in front of me, right? While I was in office and the car accident happened. We immediately stopped, got out. I waited with the four year old. She was fine. The babysitter less fine.  And so I stayed with that four-year-old and everything. And then the mom reminded me that the next day I went to the four-year-old’s kindergarten class to make sure that she was OK. And I’d forgotten most of this. But now her daughter is 14, and now she is opening this new clinic to help serve folks who have substance use disorder. And I just love that connection. I love that she reached out to me and said, hey, you did this for my child.I’m hoping to do this for children like your son.

Tricia (37:54)

Yeah, that’s really lovely. That’s really lovely. You know, I live in the, I have so many people in my world that are in recovery, more on the alcohol side of things. And it’s taken a long time to get rid of that stigma too. You know, that these things are, that these are diseases and it’s, we need to treat it that way.

Megan (38:16)

Well, and the thing is I want us to be more inclusive in the idea of treatment because for some people 12 step works, abstinence works, you bet, and that should be on offer. If you had cancer, we would decide what kind of cancer you had and then treat it appropriately. It wouldn’t be one size fits all. So my hope is that we’ll become much more expansive in how we deliver opportunities for folks to get healthy.

Tricia (38:45)

That’s all fantastic and thank you for your work. And do you think you have another book in you? 

Megan (38:52)

Well, definitely not a fiction book.

Tricia:

Okay, so we can cross that off.

Megan:

I don’t know. I mean, there used to be this Christian magazine growing up that I used to read. It was called Guidepost. And it was a big thing in my house. Like when Guidepost came, you know, my sisters and I, my mom, we all would read it. And I can remember praying to God, you know, it’d be really nice if you would ever give me like something to write about. Like, you know, because these people have great stories and I feel like well, you know God kind of answered my prayer, you know, I got something to write about and whoops. Careful what you ask for.

Tricia (39:29)

Absolutely.

Megan:

I don’t know. The short answer is I’m not I’m not writing at the moment.

Tricia:

Do you, I mean do you miss it? Do you miss it?

Megan (39:40)

I do. Yeah, I mean, because I kind of come across things that I’m like, and I’ll take a little note on my phone to say, well, maybe, maybe if I ever do sit down and write again, I’ll remember this little thing. You know, like I was in the airport two days ago, and there was this woman, I was overhearing a conversation between these two women who worked at the airport. And one of them was talking about how she had kids from 15 to two, and there were seven of them. And she was talking about how when people have birthday parties and they don’t have all the kids, they don’t show up, right? Maybe the kid doesn’t have as many friends. She’s the one they call and she’ll bring all of her children to the birthday party. I jotted that down. I’m like, that is such a great little story. How could I, you could do a whole story about that. So I write that stuff down occasionally and think, okay, how could I give that justice? And then of course I never go back to it. But I mean, in a perfect world I would. And maybe I need to take another class, because that makes me actually write.

Tricia (40:48)

Well also, what I found a million years ago, I used to keep a blog and it was due every Friday. So I’m going put that bug in your ear because then I had to write something by every Friday. I’m actually also, my listeners can keep me accountable for this, I’m actually thinking about doing a blog again. I don’t know if it’s a blog, if it’s a substack or what I’m going to do.

Megan (41:15)

No, Tricia, you totally should. What’s holding you back? Come on, like, it’s no time to be timid. 

Tricia (41:19)

Just logistics. You know so many people throw it back at my face. I should have never come up with this title. I know. Just logistics. I just got to figure out like, okay, let me just get myself organized. It’s really a matter of just getting myself organized. But I think that you have a great voice. Please don’t wait for other tragedy to happen. Can you just write? Thank you.

Tricia (41:47)

Well, yeah, let’s just have small moment stories. That would be great. Really small moments. 

Megan

Hear that God? Okay. Small moments, right.

Tricia

So I’m going to ask you what I ask all of my guests. What do you need courage for right now?

Mega:

So at the moment, I need courage to get up every day and not be completely decimated and inundated with the news cycle because it can be so overwhelming. So I am trying to read less and on that and read more creative, inspirational and books that are not gonna take me down rabbit holes that I don’t need to go down. That’s what I need right now.

Tricia (42:36)

Okay, I think you’re not alone. 

Megan (42:38)

Yeah, I don’t think I am.

Tricia (43:03)

Megan, I am so tickled that you came to the show. Thank you so much. Just, you know, hey, listen, if there’s anything, if there’s any links that you want to give us that we can put in the show notes about what to support for, you know, the work you’re doing around Max’s memory and in substance abuse disorder, please let us know and of course we’ll have the links to the show I mean, all of, you your book and your website, everything, but those other show notes, we’d love to be able to share. 

Megan (43:08)

Tricia, thank you so much for that.

Tricia

Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much. Keep us posted and keep writing.

Megan

Thank you, thank you. It’s no time to be timid!.

Tricia (43:16)

Thanks so much.

Megan

Thanks

Megan offers a powerful example of resilience, redemption, and the courage to start over. She also shows how writing can be a transformative experience, turning grief into inspiration and trauma into kindness. Like all of my guests, she left me with some questions. What areas in your life could be healed by using your creativity? What class can you take to learn or improve a skill? And how can you use your creativity as an act of service?

To learn more about Megan, go to her website, meganbarry.com, follow her on Instagram, @mayormeganbarry and make sure to purchase her book, a USA Today bestseller, It’s What You Do Next.

Thanks for joining us. If you have any questions, feel free to reach out to us at podcast@triciaroseburt.com. And if you liked this episode, please share it with one other person that you think will enjoy it. Then maybe talk to them about the parts that resonate. It really helps build our audience. And remember, this is no time to be timid!

No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch. And our executive producers are Amy Grant, Nancy Perot, and Sage Wheeler. I’d also like to thank contributors to my Fractured Atlas Fiscal Sponsorship, which helps make this podcast happen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions.