Dava Whisenant: Finding Creativity Outside Her Comfort Zone

Takeaways

• Surrounding yourself with a team of good-hearted people, helps you get you through the hard times
• The creative process requires resilience —particularly with those big dreams that take a while to realize. 
• It may not always be comfy, but sometimes it pays to keep your overhead low so you can take more creative chances.
• And the greatest rewards lie outside your comfort zones.

Resources

Learn more about Dava:

www.cactusflowerfilms.com

Completed films:

Bathtubs Over Broadway

Take That Step (finale song in Bathtubs Over Broadway)

The Flagmakers

Two Trains Runnin’

Butterfly in the Sky

Diane Warren: Relentless

The subject of her work in progress:

Thomas Jackson

Learn more about her co-writer Steve Young

Steve Young

And listen to him on No Time to be Timid!

My attempt at a film short:

How to Dye Your Hair at Home  (During a Global Pandemic)

A useful book to discover where your gifts are:

The Genuis Zone by Gay Hendricks

Transcript

Dava: [00:00:10] Hi, I’m Dava Whisenant, filmmaker and founder of Cactus Flower Films. And this is no time to be timid. [00:00:16][6.0]

Tricia: [00:00:19] Hey there, I’m Tricia Rose Burt, and I want to ask you some questions. What creative work are you called to do but are too afraid to try? Is there a change you want to see happen in your community, but you’re waiting for someone else to step up and do it? Is fear of failure preventing you from starting new things that will make a difference to your life and to others? In this podcast, we look to artists to lead us and show us how they use creativity and courage to make changes in their lives and in the world. Pay close attention because this is no time to be timid. Welcome to the show! You know, one time I was at a dinner party sitting next to a stockbroker, and he told me about the rush he feels when he executes a great trade and makes a bunch of money. And I told him, I feel that same rush when I draw with a freshly sharpened pencil on a nice piece of white paper. And he looked at me like I was crazy. I could have also told my stockbroker friend that I feel that same rush when I hear, and if I work hard enough when I tell, an elegant and efficient story where every moment and every scene moves the tale forward. There’s no excess. Every element matters. My guest today, Dava Whisenant, knows how to tell that kind of story. She’s a filmmaker and founder of Cactus Flower Films, and she’s worked in both narrative and nonfiction film for more than 20 years, mostly focusing on music and comedy. She’s worked on a variety of projects, including coediting NatGEo’s Emmy-winning and Oscar-shortlisted documentary short, The Flag Makers. And she’s also the executive producer and supervising editor of Relentless, the music documentary about songwriting legend Diane Warren. That film just premiered at South by Southwest this year. If you want to see everything that Dava’s worked on, check out her website, cactusflowerfilms.com. And if you’re a regular listener of this podcast, you know that I learned about Dava from Steve Young, the former writer for the Late Show with David Letterman, who was my guest in season two. If you didn’t hear that episode, it was episode eight, go back and listen to it now. Steve’s the subject of the award-winning documentary Bathtubs Over Broadway, which is one of my most favorite documentaries ever and it was also Dava’s directorial debut. She won a Best Directing Award at the Tribeca Film Festival, a Writers Guild Award for Best Documentary Screenplay, and an Ace Editing nomination for the film. Dava and Steve make a great team — they continue to work together on several comedy projects — and that’s one of the many takeaways of my conversation with Dava, which include surrounding yourself with a team of good-hearted people helps you get through the hard times; the creative process requires resilience, particularly with those big dreams that take a while to realize; it may not always be comfy, but sometimes it pays to keep your overhead low so you can take more creative chances; and the greatest rewards lie outside your comfort zone. Dava is a terrific example of the No Time to Be Timid manifesto, and I’m so glad you’re joining us for our conversation. [00:04:05][225.9]

Tricia: [00:04:11] Hey, Dava, thanks so much for joining us on the show. [00:04:14][2.4]

Dava: [00:04:14] Hello. Thank you for having me. [00:04:16][1.6]

Tricia: [00:04:16] I have to be careful that this podcast hasn’t become like an obsession with Bathtubs over Broadway. [00:04:21][4.6]

Tricia: [00:04:23] Steve Young is just, I just think, one of the most wonderful human beings and also happens to be wildly creative. And in the course of my interview with him in season two, he just kept saying, no, you need to understand that the genius behind Bathtubs over Broadway was Dava. And I was like, okay, I need to meet Dava. The narrative arc of Steve Young in Bathtubs Over Broadway was so beautifully done. It was so beautifully done. I just have to applaud you on that. [00:04:49][25.9]

Dava: [00:04:50] Thank you. Thank you. It was a joy to make that movie. [00:04:52][2.6]

Tricia: [00:04:53] Oh, I mean, clearly. [00:04:54][0.8]

Dava: [00:04:55] Yeah. And what a story. Yeah. Just unfolding in ways that we couldn’t, you know, believe. And I mean, I was thinking about it again, just even the fact that The Late Show shut down in the middle of filming. [00:05:06][10.4]

Tricia: [00:05:07] One of my favorite things about doing this podcast is I research everybody, you know, so I listened to the Utah Valley University conversation that you had, and I thought, holy moly, she didn’t realize at the start of filming that that major thing was going to happen in Steve’s life that was just huge. [00:05:26][18.7]

Dava: [00:05:28] Yeah, big, big thing. And so many parallels to what was going on in the corporate musical world, you know? So yeah, it’s pretty wild. [00:05:35][7.1]

Tricia: [00:05:36] A huge gift. So before we get into more conversation about Bathtubs Over Broadway, I need a little bit of an origin story about you. Like, where are you from? [00:05:44][7.9]

Dava: [00:05:44] Well, because my dad was in the Park service. I grew up in a few different places. I was born in Arizona, then we moved to Arkansas. So I was in the Ozark mountain area of Arkansas, northwest Arkansas, until I was 12. And then we moved to Miami, which is a pretty big culture shock. And then I ended up going to school in Miami and, working there for a couple of years and then heading to LA with no job. [00:06:10][25.7]

Tricia: [00:06:11] I’m familiar with doing that. What did you study when you were in school? [00:06:14][2.9]

Dava: [00:06:14] My major was video film. And I had a second major because the university made us double major and that was French. I should have done business. They should have just told us we needed to do business if we were going to be in the entertainment world. But no, not me. I was like, French would be cool. [00:06:30][15.3]

Tricia: [00:06:30] I’m really glad you brought this up, because I was in business for years and then went to art school, and I ran as fast as I could, a business going, I can’t take it anymore. And all I wanted was to be in the arts, and all of my art teachers would say, you are going to be so glad that you have business experience. And it’s true. To have this background in business it’s like, oh, as artists, we’re really just solo entrepreneurs. And then if you get into something like the entertainment business, you really have to understand business. Isn’t that something? It’s just they have to co-exist. [00:07:01][31.3]

Dava: [00:07:03] It is so true. [00:07:04][0.9]

Tricia: [00:07:04] And so you went to LA without a job? [00:07:06][1.8]

Dava: [00:07:07] Yeah. [00:07:07][0.0]

Tricia: [00:07:08] And just kind of, you know, your good looks and five bucks or something like that. [00:07:11][3.6]

Dava: [00:07:13] I got my first job out of the back of The Hollywood Reporter, which I don’t think that you can do that anymore. It was the classifieds in The Hollywood Reporter and it was like an assistant editing job. And I’d been editing for a couple of years already on the new, you know, at the time, non-linear systems. And, like, I can do that. So I just started working my way up as an assistant editor, just trying to edit anything I could. So it was, you know, action sports eventually. And then, I mean, The Letterman Show, I didn’t expect to be doing that. [00:07:42][29.2]

Tricia: [00:07:42] And tell me what you edited on The Letterman Show. What were you editing? [00:07:46][3.1]

Dava: [00:07:47] It was all the bits that the writers would come up with, so they… [00:07:50][3.2]

Dava: [00:07:51] Yeah, they have a writers meeting in the morning, decide what little funny things they wanted to do, bring them down to us. And so we’d do them, with the writers in the afternoon, and then we’d put the show together at night. So it was pretty high, fast-paced environment. But really fun. [00:08:08][17.5]

Tricia: [00:08:09] How long were you there? [00:08:09][0.5]

Dava: [00:08:10] It was off and on for about four years. The cool thing about that place was, yeah, I was just a freelancer. They would let me go off and do an indie film and then come back. It was like a little family. I really I loved them so much. Yeah. And then I came back at the end. We were filming Bathtubs already, but that when the show was finally wrapping, they needed people for all the final pieces they were going to do in the last couple, the last week of shows. So I was there for the last week too. [00:08:37][27.3]

Tricia: [00:08:38] Oh, that’s really lovely. You got to kind of close that story loop. That’s nice. [00:08:42][4.0]

Dava: [00:08:43] Yeah. [00:08:43][0.0]

Tricia: [00:08:43] Why did you want to go into editing as opposed to screenwriting or [00:08:48][4.8]

Tricia: [00:08:49] being in front of the camera? Like what was it about editing that said, Dava, I want you. [00:08:53][3.8]

Dava: [00:08:55] Well, I very quickly realized I did not want to be in front of the camera. I had been a theater major at the beginning of my college experience and very quickly realized, that’s not for me. But I do love telling stories. Something about editing just grabbed me, even back in high school. That’s where the thing really comes together. And, it just sparked joy in me to do that. And then, you know, over time, it was more like, okay, producing and directing became more interesting to me. I still love editing. I still do editing. I’m lucky enough to get hired to be a consultant, story consultant, story fixer kind of thing now, too. [00:09:34][39.0]

Tricia: [00:09:34] Well, yeah, you just won an Emmy for for the Flag Makers. [00:09:37][2.7]

Dava: [00:09:38] Well, yeah. The film, the film won an Emmy, which was fabulous. Yeah, yeah, very sweet story. Very challenging story to tell. So. Yeah. Thank you. That that it’s right back there. [00:09:49][10.6]

Tricia: [00:09:51] Our listeners cannot see it, but I am looking at an Emmy. I see the Emmy. It’s a very big deal. So here’s what I think. I mean, I’m a storyteller, first person narrative storyteller. And, you know, you learn what drives the story forward and what holds it back. And, you know, I did a one woman show. I the last time I did it was 2017. And then a friend of mine down in Nashville said, Tricia, can you do the show again? And it was like 2021. I was like, I haven’t done the show in four years. And she’s like, it doesn’t make any difference. This audience has never heard it — do it. I’m like, okay, and Dava, I got it out. And I’m like, why is this even in here? I cut eight minutes off the top of the show because it wasn’t moving the story forward, and when I was in it, I couldn’t see that it wasn’t moving the story, for I always wondered why I was, why am I still on stage right now? You know? But editing is so important to drive the story forward and knowing what to keep and what to get rid of. [00:10:51][59.3]

Dava: [00:10:52] Yeah, and it takes kind of a hard heart sometimes when you’re trying to get rid of things, you know, but it’s really responsible storytelling. You have to do it and you have to be kind of brutal about it sometimes. [00:11:02][10.6]

Tricia: [00:11:03] I was reading from your Cactus Flower films that your company is, that your job is to bring warmth and humor and a responsibility to serve the story. Yeah, that’s what it’s about. You know, you sit in the audience and you see some things go, there’s no story here. Where’s the story? So thank you for that commitment. [00:11:22][19.0]

Dava: [00:11:24] Oh, yeah. I mean, and usually the story is in there. It’s just, you know, sometimes it’s just hard to figure out how to tell it. I always I feel like there’s always a way that’s, you know, and that’s — figuring out the puzzle is so fun. You know. [00:11:38][13.9]

Tricia: [00:11:39] Yes. Yes it is. How did you make that decision to go from editing to directing? And was there a moment when that like, No Time to be Timid bell rang and you answered it? [00:11:51][12.6]

Dava: [00:11:51] Well, I think it started because I had had some frustrating experiences with directors. And I thought, well, why are they getting the chance to do this? You know, if they can do this, I can certainly do it. And then, you know, I just had that in the back of my mind. And then Steve came to me with this, you know, he’d had his book come out and people were coming to him saying, oh, we want to make a documentary about corporate musicals. And I was like, hold it. This should be the thing that I do. So and luckily, he already knew my work and trusted me, and we got lucky. We’d teamed up to do that. But I will say that something that is really huge to me about taking that step to jump into the next level of your career, I think, is having a team around you, who can support you and help you in those decisions. I think, you know, part of what made Bathtubs a success is that Steve and I didn’t want to let each other down. And that helped in the hard times, because it was a really hard project to get off the ground. And, and just that feeling of, I’m not going to let him down and this is going to be great, and it has to be great. And that really was a lot of the motivation. [00:13:04][73.0]

Tricia: [00:13:06] It’s just really so beautiful because it’s not like someone’s walking up to you most of the time saying, here’s a whole bunch of money. Go do and do what you want to do. You saw what that story could be. Steve saw what the story could be, and you just stuck with it. I loved in the conversation I was hearing you have with the Utah Valley University, and a young man was asking about monetization, and you were like, well, I paid for most, most of it and don’t do that in the beginning, when you were talking about in the beginning when you were doing film clips and, you know, just trying to get it together to get funding for the show. And I have been down that road myself where. Whoa. [00:13:49][42.7]

Dava: [00:13:50] Yeah. And I mean, you know, if you don’t come from money, which I do not, it’s really hard to get things off the ground because, you know, you’re having to figure out how to pay the bills. And also you have to invest in yourself and in the project, this project that you believe in that nobody else can see yet. So yeah. Yeah, I mean, it it is a risky thing. And, you know, you are not supposed to put your own money into things. But at the beginning, when nobody trusts that you can do it, you sometimes have to, you know. [00:14:21][31.1]

Tricia: [00:14:21] Yes, I do. I mean, when I was so excited, I got into the Fringe Festival and then I’m like, oh, and this cost a lot of money if you’re going to do it well, and if you’re going to try to have that vision come together as you have in your mind, you know, you do whatever it takes to make it happen. The arc of this podcast has been getting the courage to step into your creative self in the first place, then then learning the traits that required to sustain a creative life. And this episode, it’s kind of like when you get good things that are happening to you and but still the courage and the resilience that it’s taking to see them through. So tell me about a couple of times when you thought it is not going to happen or this obstacle was too big, or did you have any of those moments where you really had to get the courage and just keep going? [00:15:09][47.8]

Dava: [00:15:11] Yeah. I mean, it took us two years of just really kind of muddling through and getting a little bit of money here and there. And I really thought like, nobody’s nobody’s getting it. They’re just not understanding and I think we did have one of our producers came through with some money right at that time when I was really at the lowest point. And, you know, you don’t want to sacrifice quality, you know, you want to be able to pay the people who are helping you to do these things, like the DP’s and the sound people, and you need money. And it was that was a really low point. And I’ve had so many of those, you know, since then, I mean, lots more probably since then. You know, after the big success of that film. Well, in certain circles it was a big success. It didn’t make a lot of money because it wasn’t really released in a, in the way that it would be able to make money. But, after that success, it was kind of tough to get things off the ground still. And that was extremely frustrating. So I’m still in that place of am I doing the right thing with my life? Because it’s so hard. [00:16:17][66.1]

Tricia: [00:16:17] I love your honesty about it. Because it’s really hard, you know? I do feel like when we step into our own creativity, it changes ourselves and then it can change the world. I mean, y’all changed a piece of the world. [00:16:31][14.3]

Dava: [00:16:32] I do feel that. Yeah. In its own way. It’s been very encouraging to other people, you know, that — I love the message of the final song, you know, take that step. It’ll change your life. And, you know, that left turn might be right. I love that. And the other thing in that song is we’re stronger as a team. And that’s something that I, you know, I’ve really come to appreciate. You find your good hearted people that you don’t want to let go of, and they keep you going in the hard parts. [00:17:00][28.0]

Tricia: [00:17:01] This whole thing started because I wrote a manifesto called the No Time to Be Timid manifesto. There’s all these different points to it, and one of them is there is courage in community, and it’s just so much easier if you have people around you. You know, I’ve been a storyteller on my own, on stage for ages, and it’s lonely. And the reason why I love this podcast is I get to work with Adam, my producer. It’s like there’s another person that I’m working with and I get to talk to guests. It’s a whole different ballgame when you’re with people. [00:17:29][28.5]

Dava: [00:17:31] Absolutely. And I’m an introvert. So all of this, you know, it’s going out and even doing this podcast. I mean, I love that it’s called No Time to Be Timid because there, you know, right away it’s like, well, I guess I need to do this. [00:17:46][15.1]

Dava: [00:17:46] Because there’s no time to be timid. [00:17:49][2.9]

Dava: [00:17:52] Yeah. I mean, you know, okay, you’re going to do it. [00:17:54][2.2]

Dava: [00:17:57] So, yeah. [00:17:57][0.4]

Tricia: [00:18:00] It’s really funny. I’ll be kind of wimping out about something and friends of mine will go, like, have you heard this podcast called No Time to Be Timid? I’m like, shut up. [00:18:06][6.4]

Dava: [00:18:07] You know. [00:18:07][0.1]

Tricia: [00:18:08] Who’s idea was it to name it that? [00:18:09][1.2]

Dava: [00:18:11] Oh, it’s great though. It’s great. And it’s so true that, you know, especially as you get into middle age, it’s like that we don’t have time to mess around. I don’t even have time to color my hair anymore, you know what I mean? I like, I got so many hours in the day, and if I want to be creative, I’ve got to, you know, throw some stuff out, you know, like coloring my hair, I don’t care. [00:18:32][20.8]

Tricia: [00:18:33] Oh, that’s so funny. I did a, when the when the pandemic started, I did a short film in my bathroom about how to color your hair during a pandemic. [00:18:40][7.6]

Dava: [00:18:45] I would love to watch that. [00:18:45][0.0]

Tricia: [00:18:45] I’ve been doing it for years, so I will send it your way. I really appreciate your honesty about even being nervous to be on the podcast about being interviewed, because I think people, you know, expect these big personalities if they’re directors. And maybe that’s just not always the case. [00:19:01][15.8]

Dava: [00:19:02] Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s like, I know I have a point of view, and I know I have the kinds of films that I want to see, and that’s the kind of film I want to make. And so I think if there’s I don’t have to be a big personality to get out there and get these things done and have people like them. But, you know, when you’re in the selling phase, yeah, you kind of have to figure that out. And I like to have a producer, a strong producer with me who’s better at the, you know, schmoozing and networking because I know that’s just not my strengths. You know, I’m good at the nuts and bolts of getting the thing done. Yeah. And and, finding the money and all that stuff is not my natural place to be. [00:19:45][42.9]

Tricia: [00:19:46] That’s part of what we figure out is where, you know, where’s what does that book, The Genius Zone, like, where is your zone of genius? What do you really good at? And what do you need to give to somebody else to do? And we don’t, I mean, I’m, you know, middle aged too. I don’t have a lot of time, so I need to make sure I’m using my time the best way I can do it and not try to figure out, for instance, how to edit this podcast. I mean, Adam does all that stuff for me brilliantly because it would just take me 5 billion years on how to figure out how to do that. So but you’re talking about other films that you, you know, that you’ve been working on. So you’ve been busy, been on the road, right, with Butterfly in the Sky. Is that what you’ve been doing? Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:20:27][41.4]

Dava: [00:20:27] Sure. That is a project about the making of the show, Reading Rainbow with LeVar Burton. And that was a project that I was brought on to, kind of for fresh eyes as far as story goes and I just completely hit it off with the two directors, Brad and Brett and and, yeah, they kind of brought me into their fold. I’ve been out on tour with the film, and it’s about to come out. AMC theaters is going to do something in March, and then it’s going to be on streaming in some form, coming up later this year. Finally. That’s fantastic. Very sweet project. About also about teams, the importance of teamwork. Really beautiful, sweet film. You know, I like movies that make you laugh and cry and that does this. And then I also just finished, a documentary about Diane Warren, the songwriter. [00:21:18][50.7]

Tricia: [00:21:19] I was just about to ask you about that, too. [00:21:21][1.4]

Dava: [00:21:21] I mean, that’s an underdog, great underdog story. Diane didn’t come from any connections or money or anything like that and just became a powerhouse of songwriting. And and so I love her story. And that was another one where, the director is Bess Kargman. And and they, brought me in for kind of fresh eyes, and I’m an executive producer on that one as well. And it’s a beautiful story. [00:21:43][21.8]

Tricia: [00:21:44] I like this connection of you being an introvert, and that the stories that you tell are so nuanced and subtle and some you know what I’m saying? There these lovely, like, just look just a little bit further and you’re going to find this person or find this subject or find this thing, it’s really beautiful. You’re uncovering these sort of hidden gems and showing them to us. It’s very important work. [00:22:09][25.1]

Dava: [00:22:10] Thank you. I mean, they’re the stories that I love the most. You know, it’s some kind of world or person that we weren’t supposed to know about or we weren’t going to know about or, you know, I don’t know. That’s the that’s my kind of thing. I love, underdog stories. That’s my [00:22:25][15.6]

Dava: [00:22:26] Favorite. Favorite. [00:22:26][0.4]

Tricia: [00:22:27] Well, there’s lots of redemption because well, the world’s on fire. So it’s nice to have these films that we can see where there is — I mean, there’s tension. It’s not like it’s, you know, we have a Pollyanna movie by any means. There’s tension in the films that you’re doing. Yeah. And there’s also warmth and hope and and redemption in them as well. [00:22:47][20.6]

Dava: [00:22:49] Yeah, that’s that’s the trick. I think. It doesn’t have to be high stakes drama to be a great film. And, you know, Ted Lasso is huge hit. You know, it’s pretty low stakes drama. [00:22:59][10.0]

Dava: [00:23:00] Yeah, you know. [00:23:00][0.8]

Dava: [00:23:02] And it’s all about characters and, and the little, the little things that we fight against in ourselves and against each other in life. [00:23:08][6.9]

Tricia: [00:23:25] We’ll get back to the second half of our conversation in a moment. But right now I want to tell you about our sponsor Interabang Books, a Dallas-based independent bookstore with a terrific online collection. At Interabang, their dedicated staff of book enthusiasts will guide you on your search for knowledge and the excitement of discovery. Shop their curated collection online at interabangbooks.com. That’s interabangbooks.com. [00:23:56][30.1]

Tricia: [00:23:56] Really, your subject matter is just so compelling. I mean, do you find these stories or do the stories find you? [00:24:22][26.4]

Dava: [00:24:24] Well, you know, since Bathtubs came out, a lot of times it’s stories finding, you know, producers reaching out to me with something that they need help with. But I am doing my own projects as well. There’s one project I could talk about that is so much about creativity. And that was one where it’s a documentary that I’m doing completely independently. A lot of it I’ve shot myself, everything, you know, about a photographer, installation artist who I love. I just discovered his work through, I think, Harper’s Magazine or something, and I just had to reach out to him, and I said, hey, I’m a documentary filmmaker. I love what you’re doing, and I would love to document your process. And that was, you know, it started years ago because I’m funding it myself and doing all of it myself, it’s taken forever. But the relationship with this artist has also developed and to a really trusting thing. So that is a project I just completely in love with. And looking for more time to work on it wherever I can because it’s, that’s another just labor of love thing. And he’s doing amazing creative work. His name is Thomas Jackson. [00:25:31][67.4]

Tricia: [00:25:32] I was going to ask you about that because I saw it on your site. And then I looked at his work and I’m like, this is really this is really compelling work. So you’ve done this feature film and now you’re doing short films. Do you have one that you prefer? Like do you have a form, because I know you and Steve are working on I saw both Brief Survey and Photo Op, which are just genius. And those I mean, what you can accomplish in three minutes was just cracking me up. I mean, it’s like it’s three minutes and it’s so [00:26:00][28.0]

Tricia: [00:26:01] Amazing in three minutes. So, like, how long is the is the documentary for Thomas Jackson? How long do you do you even have a sense of how long that’s going to be? [00:26:10][8.8]

Dava: [00:26:10] I have a feeling that’s going to be, under a half hour. Definitely a short film. [00:26:15][4.1]

Tricia: [00:26:15] But not so short. I mean, obviously it’s not three minutes. [00:26:17][2.0]

Dava: [00:26:18] No, no, no, I mean, there’s there’s so much that he’s doing and, and so many challenges that he’s up against and he’s and over time, he’s really there is a story arc in there now which I’m very excited about. It seems like these days people pull things out, draw things out a little bit too long. You know, you’ll have a six part series that probably should have been three or, you know. Don’t do that to people! You know, it’s just like, come on, you know, why does a movie need to be three hours? I really yeah. You know, some of them maybe do. But you know, I love the 80 to 90 minute zone. Like. You know, just crystallize that baby down into what really matters. Yes. So, yeah. And I feel like it the short form, short form is its own thing, too. It’s its own challenge, which is really exciting. And figuring out, you know, how best to tell a story that has impact in a short amount of time. It’s it’s really exciting. So I, I love all of them, but I still love features the most. [00:27:18][59.9]

Tricia: [00:27:18] Yeah. You do. [00:27:19][0.5]

Dava: [00:27:19] Oh, yeah. I think it’s it’s the biggest challenge to do that well, and, give people something meaningful in a short amount, well, in a, let’s say, 90 minute format. [00:27:30][11.3]

Tricia: [00:27:31] Parameters can really work for you. I mean, I found that a lot. It’s like when I think, damn, I don’t have any money to buy X, Y, and Z, and it makes me be more creative in another way that I would’ve never thought about being. And so I can see the, like the beauty that can be in I have three minutes to do this, or I have however many to do this, but I can also sort of see the luxury of having 90. That must feel really sort of luxurious after working within a three minute form. [00:27:57][26.0]

Dava: [00:27:58] Yeah, or completely intimidating too, because especially when you first start a feature film, it’s oh God, I have all of this footage and how am I going to get it down into this little time period? It can be really overwhelming. I’ve learned ways to get past that overwhelm when I’m doing a feature. [00:28:16][18.0]

Tricia: [00:28:17] Well, how are the ways you get past the overwhelm? [00:28:18][1.5]

Dava: [00:28:19] I start with the the scenes that I know I love that well, they have to be in the movie. They’re so great and I kind of tentpole them, you know, I’ll put them where I guess that they’re going to be. I also outline really heavily, but and then also I’ll just edit the stuff that I know I love first. And I also just tell myself this is a process, you know, step by step, you know, day by day. Don’t get overwhelmed by the mass of this thing. Just do the parts you like and it’ll start coming together, whittling away at it. It’s kind of be patient and don’t think of a whole thing. Think first of just, the little the parts that you love, the kernels that you love and start there. And that seems to work pretty well. [00:29:03][44.2]

Tricia: [00:29:04] Do you have a feature film that’s swirling around in your head right now? [00:29:07][3.2]

Dava: [00:29:09] Oh, I have several. [00:29:10][0.9]

Dava: [00:29:12] I mean. [00:29:12][0.3]

Tricia: [00:29:13] In the sense of writing them or wanting to direct them? [00:29:15][2.2]

Dava: [00:29:16] Well, I did option a novel that I love, and I wrote a version of the screenplay. And so, now I’m in my second draft phase. Yeah. The challenge there is that the author and I both kind of feel like it also could be a great series. So we got slightly distracted. I mean, it’s so easy to get off the path, you know, but, you know, the screenplay is good. Why are we thinking about, oh, we gotta make it a series. Let’s just hone in on the thing that we know. So that was a fun process. The author is very open to me, changing things in her book and so that screenplay is a work in progress. That’s a scripted thing. But then I have some documentary features that I could just hope I can get some funding for soon. Let’s see. [00:30:04][47.6]

Tricia: [00:30:05] So can you talk specifically about what that funding is? The reason why I’m telling you this is last season we had Jeri Lynne Johnson, who is the founder and artistic director of the Black Pearl Chamber Orchestra. And I asked her, you know, I had done in my research, she wanted to be the first black female conductor to record all of Beethoven’s nine symphonies. And I said, how is that going for you? And she said slowly, what I need is a really big donor. And after the show dropped, I had a listener call me and say, could you please find out how much it costs to underwrite one of Beethoven’s symphonies? And, and so now one of her symphonies is being underwritten by a listener of the show. So don’t hold back, Dava. You never know. [00:30:47][42.4]

Dava: [00:30:47] All right, there’s no time to be timid! Okay. [00:30:52][4.1]

Dava: [00:30:52] Well, one of them is a female sports documentary. One’s about a video game developer. The female sports documentary is very exciting. It’s kind of a hidden world. I love these hidden worlds and female empowerment. And, yeah, it’s a it’s an international story, too, which is why I need funding. But that — the business is so odd right now. We have fewer companies buying projects or investing in projects. And, you know, the companies have been merging and it’s just such an odd time. So, you know, the ideal thing is to have some streamer or HBO or whatever get in and fund the whole thing. But, you know, it’s really that’s only happening for the super famous names in documentary. Yeah. So it’s more it’s usually a scrappy kind of situation. [00:31:46][53.8]

Tricia: [00:31:47] But the famous ones started out scrappy at some point. [00:31:49][2.0]

Dava: [00:31:50] Right. And I do I mean, it is easier to get meetings these days because of Bathtubs. So, you know, one, one success, it’s you know, maybe it wasn’t a huge financial success, but it’s so well loved that it’s easy to get meetings. And we do have people that we can go to say, hey, we have this new project. In a way, it’s kind of like Bathtubs. And, and people understand that I can do that kind of thing. So it’s not a stretch. So we’re about to go out and start pitching it, which we’ll see. But yeah. [00:32:22][32.6]

Tricia: [00:32:23] One of the things I was struck by in one of the interviews I was listening to is that you had this just triumphant premiere at Tribeca with Bathtubs. It was just all so great, and yet it was still hard to sell it. [00:32:34][10.7]

Dava: [00:32:35] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s the other big thing I learned in this process is that sales agents and publicists and buyers, they need something that requires no explanation to understand. So that’s why you have the profiles of, so, you know, so many documentaries are profiles of famous people or, you know, something that is, you know, boxing or something that’s just super easily understandable. But I worked on a blues and civil rights film called Two Trains Runnin’ that also had a hard time finding a buyer. And and it was we had, sales agents say to us it’s because it’s about two things. It’s about blues and civil rights. It needs to just be about one thing like that. [00:33:19][44.7]

Dava: [00:33:20] But that’s what makes it interesting. You know. [00:33:23][2.9]

Dava: [00:33:24] Or Bathtubs over Broadway, like, I don’t even understand what corporate musicals are. You know? So. And we really needed a trailer at the beginning, but we were advised not to spend money on a trailer, which, you know, we should have had a trailer. [00:33:36][12.7]

Dava: [00:33:37] Yes. [00:33:37][0.0]

Dava: [00:33:38] Once we had a trailer, then people understood. Okay. It’s it’s also heartfelt and it’s funny. And you don’t have to care about corporate musicals to be interested. [00:33:47][8.3]

Tricia: [00:33:48] Because it really wasn’t about corporate musicals. [00:33:49][1.6]

Dava: [00:33:50] Right. It’s about Steve’s journey. [00:33:51][1.1]

Tricia: [00:33:52] Yeah, it was Steve’s journey that happened to take place in the world of corporate musicals. Yeah. [00:33:57][4.5]

Dava: [00:33:57] I think it was at Goodwill or something like that, I found these inspirational mugs and I thought, you know, like, ironically, I thought they were so, just oh, that’s hilarious. I’m going to go, and one of them says, “gotta hustle.” And it’s like, you know, it’s like a pretty little green thing with a, like, funny little font and and, yeah, one’s “gotta hustle” and the other’s “hello sunshine” and the other one is. Oh, now I’m going to forget it. “You got this!” you know, and I. Oh. Ha ha. It’s so funny. And now I. [00:34:26][28.9]

Dava: [00:34:27] Totally rely on my inspirational mugs. [00:34:28][1.3]

Dava: [00:34:31] I wish I had one with me right now so I could show you. They’re so funny, but they’re so great. [00:34:36][4.8]

Tricia: [00:34:38] I mean, honestly, [00:34:38][0.5]

Tricia: [00:34:40] this is a lonely endeavor even if you are with a team of people, you know, and whatever it takes to. [00:34:45][5.1]

Tricia: [00:34:45] Go, okay, let’s get in there. I mean. [00:34:47][1.8]

Tricia: [00:34:47] If it’s a Goodwill coffee mug, then have at it. [00:34:50][2.6]

Tricia: [00:34:50] And like, yeah. [00:34:52][1.6]

Dava: [00:34:52] I know I want to go around and like, are there any more? You know, do I need to go to the thrift shop and see if I can find more inspirational mugs? [00:35:00][7.2]

Tricia: [00:35:01] Well, we’ll just put that on our. [00:35:02][1.4]

Tricia: [00:35:02] List of things to send your. [00:35:03][1.1]

Tricia: [00:35:03] Way. Just, you know, if that’s what it takes to get it going. Yeah. [00:35:08][4.9]

Dava: [00:35:09] Yeah, yeah. Be on the lookout, please. Everyone. America. The world. [00:35:13][3.3]

Dava: [00:35:14] Inspirational mugs. [00:35:15][0.7]

Tricia: [00:35:16] I mean, maybe I should I am I was going to send you a No Time to be Timid t-shirt. I don’t have a mug, but I’ve got a t shirt. [00:35:22][6.1]

Dava: [00:35:23] I’ll take it. [00:35:24][0.5]

Tricia: [00:35:24] I’ll see if I can get a mug. I’ll see if I can get a mug. So I want to ask you right now. [00:35:30][6.0]

Tricia: [00:35:31] What’s scaring you right now? What’s requiring courage from you right now? [00:35:36][4.8]

Dava: [00:35:37] There’s the ever present fear of just general failure. That is constantly, you know, overcoming every day. But, you know, financial stuff is, is my biggest concern because, like I said, I don’t come from money. I don’t have — my partner is a little older than I am. He’s basically retired. So it’s we’re a one income situation. And so, you know, it’s those basic things of I’m going to have to take a job possibly that I don’t love that will take a lot of time away from my these projects that I do love to make money. And so that’s really it just comes down to finances for me. But then, you know, it’s been a while since Bathtubs came out and nobody else is thinking of this, nobody else cares, but in my mind, I, you know, it looks terrible. We haven’t had another film come out, so just things like that, you know, where it’s judgment. I’m fearing judgment from people. I mean, if I’m completely honest, that’s a lot of it. [00:36:41][63.4]

Dava: [00:36:42] And just trying to. Just knowing that that doesn’t really matter. Nobody cares. And, you know, it’s not a competition. The things that you know internally, but somehow your heart still feels fear about these things, that kind of stuff. [00:36:56][14.3]

Tricia: [00:36:57] Well, it’s it’s. [00:36:58][0.9]

Tricia: [00:36:58] Vulnerable to be a creative person. It’s a really vulnerable thing to be. And then, you know, it’s not like we get validation stamps every single day. Like, yeah, keep going. That’s why I wanted to have this podcast in the first place. Is what it requires. We have to keep flexing that courage muscle all of the time. It requires for all of us still to get up and say, I need to do this because it’s going to change me. And if I change me, then I’m going to be able to change that world. You know, Dava, if you’re not doing what you’re doing, we’re all going to suffer from that, right? We’re all going to suffer if you don’t keep looking for the stories of the hidden things and the hidden worlds that we all need to see. [00:37:42][43.6]

Dava: [00:37:42] Yeah, I know what you mean by that. It’s. I just have to have the strength to keep going and and doing it even when it’s really hard. And, you know, the other thing is. Talking about fear. I do think it’s good to have a little bit of fear. I there’s a very specific reason I do not have a regular 9 to 5 job. You know, I’ll take jobs on other people’s films, but it’s just because I crave variety and change and, I need to be a little bit afraid that I’m outside my comfort zone or there’s something that’s not alive in me. So there’s so much of what I’m doing is pushing myself outside my comfort zone. And it’s really scary. But. It’s so satisfying when you when like something like Bathtubs actually it works. I did that, I was totally terrified to make that film, and I did it and and it was it’s great. It’s beautiful. And I worked with some amazing people making it. And so, yeah, it’s just okay, I can be afraid. I can be in that real scary place of not knowing what’s coming. And maybe something fabulous will happen from that. [00:38:57][74.7]

Tricia: [00:38:58] I have a line. I always say that the risk is thing I can do is play it safe. That’s because as soon as I play it safe. I’m just shriveling up and it doesn’t work anyway. Like, I have all these examples of when I played it safe and it just just blew up because it just not — I can’t do it. It just doesn’t work, you know? [00:39:20][22.0]

Dava: [00:39:20] Yeah. [00:39:20][0.0]

Tricia: [00:39:21] And, and I’ve sort of made this, this sort of trade off or creative, you know, it’s I’ve sort of exchanged financial freedom for creative freedom. [00:39:30][9.0]

Dava: [00:39:31] Yes. Yeah. And it’s scary to do that. But so satisfying. [00:39:35][3.8]

Tricia: [00:39:36] I mean, I will say I often miss the firehose of cash that came from some of the consulting I used to do. [00:39:41][5.1]

Tricia: [00:39:43] I yearn for the fire. [00:39:44][1.0]

Tricia: [00:39:44] I yearn for the fire hose of cash. But like you. And you just said it so beautifully, you know, just to push ourselves out of our comfort zones and to just be scared is kind of to be alive. [00:39:59][14.6]

Dava: [00:40:00] Yeah, yeah. That’s what works for me. And yeah, I also keep my overhead low so that I can take some chances and and, that’s not always comfy. You want to sometimes take the big trip or buy the super nice pair of shoes, but, maybe I won’t this time. Maybe I’ll, you know, hire a DP and go shoot some crazy stuff for a weekend. [00:40:24][23.6]

Tricia: [00:40:25] We are all the better for those choices, Dava [00:40:27][1.9]

Tricia: [00:40:29] Thank you so much for making them. [00:40:31][1.5]

Dava: [00:40:31] Thank you. Thank you for what you’re doing. I just really love this show. And, the title just going to echo in my mind, you know? So yeah, really, really appreciate you having me on. Thanks. [00:40:43][11.8]

Tricia: [00:40:44] Thanks so much, Dava, I appreciate it. I loved my conversation with Dava. She’s so honest about how hard it can be to be an artist sometimes, and lucky for us, she’s also resilient and powers through the doubt and the fear and makes her art anyway. She’s a huge inspiration to me and she gave me some questions to think about. Who’s on your team? Who are those good hearted people that keep you going in the hard parts? What are the stories that you love the most? That you’re aching to tell? And finally, are you stepping out of your comfort zone? What are you doing that terrifies you? In a good way? Don’t forget the first principle of the No Time to be Timid manifesto — the riskiest thing you can do is play it safe. And if you don’t have a copy of the manifesto yet, go to triciaroseburt.com/manifesto and download yours today. To learn more about Dava and her work go to cactusflowerfilms.com and you can follow her on Instagram @cactusflowerfilms. If you’re listening to this podcast, it’s because you care about creativity and courage too. And believe, like I do, that this is no time to be timid. This year I’m taking the No Time to be Timid message on the road. And maybe your part of the world needs to hear it. If you’re looking to awaken boldness and creativity in your company or organization, I’d love to come speak to you. Let’s have a conversation. Please reach out to me at booking@triciaroseburt.com. Join us for our next episode when our guest will be singer songwriter Lila Forde. Lila earned a four chair turn in Season 14 of The Voice last fall, and was one of the show’s five finalists. John Legend, her coach on The Voice, said he chose Lila because she is magical, and when you listen to our conversation, you’ll discover she’s also incredibly down to earth with a wisdom far beyond her years. You don’t want to miss this episode. In fact, you don’t want to miss any episodes this season, so make sure to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And remember, this is no time to be timid. No Time to Be Timid is written and produced by me, Tricia Rose Burt. Our episodes are produced and scored by Adam Arnone of Echo Finch, and our theme music is Twists and Turns by the Paul Dunlea Group. If you like what you hear, please spread the word, subscribe to the show, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. No Time to Be Timid is a presentation of I Will Be Good Productions. [00:40:44]